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Offline H. Hiis

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« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2005, 12:05:38 PM »
Well, if you're particularly GOOD, why are you romancing Aliz in the first place?

second - if you choose the good path, anyway, then just get a little higher DEX. Or get the Gauntlets of Dexterity.

edit: Besides - 12 DEX is not a problem that's impossible to overcome, I wager.
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Offline Undertaker

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« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2005, 12:12:19 PM »
Quote from: "H. Hiis"
Well, if you're particularly GOOD, why are you romancing Aliz in the first place?

second - if you choose the good path, anyway, then just get a little higher DEX. Or get the Gauntlets of Dexterity.

edit: Besides - 12 DEX is not a problem that's impossible to overcome, I wager.



I haven't noticed any aligement restrictions to romance Aliz so I could be a good character.The question is how would she react to it and will she leave the party when rep.is above 18.

And there are at least 3 ways (more or less legal) to avoid loosing DEX point in that trail. :)
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Offline Feanor

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« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2005, 12:33:58 PM »
Quote from: "H. Hiis"
Well, if you're particularly GOOD, why are you romancing Aliz in the first place?



      1. I did not notice the romance to be restricted only to evil characters.

2. Maybe the PC is not good, but he considers the character taken captive too useful to let him die ?

Quote
second - if you choose the good path, anyway, then just get a little higher DEX. Or get the Gauntlets of Dexterity.



     Claw of Kazgaroth : - 2 Con penalty
T'rahcie's Plate +5 : - 5 Charisma penalty, - 2 Con penalty
Contagion spell : reduces Str, Cha and Dex with 2

     And you put THREE stat requirements. This can put a problem for mage characters because they also need a high Int, a high Wis to be able to use the Limited Wish and Wish spells and an average Str (else they won't be able to carry almost anything). Those requirements already make the life of mage PC's quite hard.

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Besides - 12 DEX is not a problem that's impossible to overcome, I wager


      It is not about if this can be overcome or not. It is about poor gameplay decisions. And to insert a stat requirement for a romance in a game where this can be affected by in-game items or it is restrictive for the PC's options (and there is the other demon which also asks the PC to give up on one of his stats) is a poor gameplay decision. I said about Saerileth as well and that mod is my favorite.
    The IE engine can't handle well stat requirements in romances and that's it.

      Anyway, I shall restrain myself from further objections until I see if the end justifies the means.
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Offline H. Hiis

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« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2005, 11:54:02 PM »
The end DOES justify the means.

And you don't need to have it ALL the time. In fact - if you lose it in the Hell Trials, it's likely no longer needed.
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Offline Beetle

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« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2005, 07:46:59 AM »
Quote from: "Feanor"
It is not about if this can be overcome or not. It is about poor gameplay decisions. And to insert a stat requirement for a romance in a game where this can be affected by in-game items or it is restrictive for the PC's options (and there is the other demon which also asks the PC to give up on one of his stats) is a poor gameplay decision. I said about Saerileth as well and that mod is my favorite.

Except that it's not primarily a "gameplay" decision, it's a character-driven decsion, based on what sort of person the NPC would choose to romance. It's really no different than race requirements. Yes, it may require the PC to not use certain items, or to have to sacrifice a more valuable stat instead of charisma when called on to do so, but such is the price of love. If you don't like the "picky" NPCs, don't date them - stick with the Bioware romances or Lord M's Immy.
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Offline Feanor

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« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2005, 08:06:31 AM »
Quote from: "Beetle"
Quote from: "Feanor"
It is not about if this can be overcome or not. It is about poor gameplay decisions. And to insert a stat requirement for a romance in a game where this can be affected by in-game items or it is restrictive for the PC's options (and there is the other demon which also asks the PC to give up on one of his stats) is a poor gameplay decision. I said about Saerileth as well and that mod is my favorite.

Except that it's not primarily a "gameplay" decision, it's a character-driven decsion, based on what sort of person the NPC would choose to romance. It's really no different than race requirements. Yes, it may require the PC to not use certain items, or to have to sacrifice a more valuable stat instead of charisma when called on to do so, but such is the price of love. If you don't like the "picky" NPCs, don't date them - stick with the Bioware romances or Lord M's Immy.



    One of the major rules in RPG's is to allow the player as much freedom as possible and the crucial decisions to be left to the PC alone. It is much different from the race requirement because your race does not change along the game. Not to mention that a stat requirement can lead to a lot of ridiculous situations.
     And, by "gameplay decision", I was refering to the fact that this can negatively affect the gameplay.


Quote
If you don't like the "picky" NPCs, don't date them - stick with the Bioware romances or Lord M's Immy.


    The argument "if you don't like it, don't play it" is feeble.

    But, anyway, I made my point. To judge this fairly, we must first wait to see why are those requirements so important.
    On the other hand, a modder does not make a mod only for himself, I assume he wants others to play it and tell him it is good. Such requirements can lead to frustrated players. There were some cases with Saerileth mod, of players who saw their romance killed and their game screwed because of the charisma-reducing items.
Real sucks, Barca rules !

I like Real only when it plays in Segunda Division !

It is said that Mount Celestia is a place of perfection. None else than Saerileth could have been the symbol of its splendor.

Offline H. Hiis

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« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2005, 09:25:56 AM »
"If you don't like it, don't play it" is a perfectly valid argument.

Yes, I will listen to suggestions. Yes, I will listen to arguments. Yes, I will listen to constructive criticism and when I'm pointed out flaws in my work.

However - fundamental basis will remain the same and, as odd as it may sound, these requirements are part of said basis.
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Offline H. Hiis

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« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2005, 09:27:25 AM »
Also - it's true that Aliz will not check for alignment when in romance. However, there are some "goody" descisions that can cause conflicts with her. I will elaborate on those later.
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Offline Beetle

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« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2005, 10:14:37 AM »
Quote from: "Feanor"
One of the major rules in RPG's is to allow the player as much freedom as possible and the crucial decisions to be left to the PC alone. It is much different from the race requirement because your race does not change along the game. Not to mention that a stat requirement can lead to a lot of ridiculous situations.


But mod makers aren't creating an RPG, they are adding additional (free) content. Since they are creating optional characters, it's perfectly within their rights to say their NPC would only romance characters that have certain qualities. Personally, I think it makes them more believable characters.

Also, do alignment restrictions on romances qualify as bad game design? After all, the PC's alignment can change in the course of the game.

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The argument "if you don't like it, don't play it" is feeble.

It's saved me much handwringing and arguing about the Virtue mod.  ;-)

Quote
But, anyway, I made my point. To judge this fairly, we must first wait to see why are those requirements so important.


Very true. If these restrictions are put in place, there should be a real, character-driven reason for them.
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Offline Feanor

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« Reply #24 on: October 18, 2005, 10:26:54 AM »
Quote from: "H. Hiis"
"If you don't like it, don't play it" is a perfectly valid argument.

Yes, I will listen to suggestions. Yes, I will listen to arguments. Yes, I will listen to constructive criticism and when I'm pointed out flaws in my work.

However - fundamental basis will remain the same and, as odd as it may sound, these requirements are part of said basis.



       As I said, "But, anyway, I made my point. To judge this fairly, we must first wait to see why are those requirements so important."   And it is better that the concern are voiced, even with the risk of getting the author defensive.  :P


Quote
do alignment restrictions on romances qualify as bad game design? After all, the PC's alignment can change in the course of the game


     There are no alignment restrictions in the official romances. And, beside that, it is much more logical for a paladin to romance only a good character rather than a character with 12 Dex. After all, I would really be curious how does the paladin check the dexterity. Did he play ping-pong with the PC ?  8)
Real sucks, Barca rules !

I like Real only when it plays in Segunda Division !

It is said that Mount Celestia is a place of perfection. None else than Saerileth could have been the symbol of its splendor.

Offline Lord Ernie

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« Reply #25 on: October 18, 2005, 11:37:01 AM »
Quote from: "Feanor"
There are no alignment restrictions in the official romances. And, beside that, it is much more logical for a paladin to romance only a good character rather than a character with 12 Dex. After all, I would really be curious how does the paladin check the dexterity. Did he play ping-pong with the PC ?

That goes both ways. Though a paladin is somewhat an exception to this, how can any other character know the PC's good or evil from the get-go? He can't. Having the romance/friendship/whatever cut off after an unusually evil action/reaction makes a lot more sense in this case.

Anyway, my 2 cents: I don't really mind stat requirements, or anything, as long as they make sense. If you require 16 charisma, for example, because the NPC only likes cute people, that makes sense. On the other hand, I can't imagine what 12 Dexterity says about a person, other than that he's a wee bit more agile than normal...

Offline Undertaker

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« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2005, 11:42:18 AM »
Quote from: "Feanor"
After all, I would really be curious how does the paladin check the dexterity. Did he play ping-pong with the PC ?  8)


There are other ways to check it :unibrow:
Evil hidden everywhere
Evil has a chilling stare
Null and void of any care
Is where the answer lies
It does no good to beg or cry
It does no good to question why
It does no good it never dies
Evil never dies

Offline Moongaze

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« Reply #27 on: October 24, 2005, 03:29:10 AM »
Quote from: "Undertaker"
There are other ways to check it :unibrow:


Yoga. :rolleyes:

Anyway, isn't there a way to somehow stop the script from checking for stat restrictions after XX LoveTalks or so? Say I fell for a girl with...15 intelligence. Later in the game, she gets mindflayed, her INT dropping to 4. After killing the illithids and restoring her to her normal, everything is fine again. Why would I break off the romance I have with her because she was mindflayed or affected by the Feeblemind spell? Of course, it's an incidental event. I'm trying to say that, personally, if I love another, I grow used to their flaws the longer the relationship lasts, to the point of acceptance and understanding when a stat gets "reduced".

Simply put: If a character has a solid reason for a permanent stat requirement (such as Edwin Romance requires 15+ INT, since he prefers a woman who possess more intellect than your average chimpanzee), then I think it's fine. Personally I don't mind restrictions. It's just my opinion anyway.

Offline rabain

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« Reply #28 on: October 24, 2005, 04:31:46 AM »
I was under the impression that most romance mods set a variable at the time the NPC joins the party which set whether the romance is viable or not.  Once set it does not matter whether the requirements change or not.  The only problem with this way is if a romance depends on Charisma and <CHARNAME> just happens to have the ring of charisma on when they first meet the NPC.  Myself I don't believe in over-zealous stat restrictions, alignment/reputation  restrictions are better.

A Paladin might be able to detect good in someone but they are unlikely to detect the use of a ring of charisma.

An even better way might be to have for example two or three dialogues after the NPC joins the party with answer options for the PC.  If the PC answers in a way that you feel would suit the NPC then romance is initiated.  Each "correct" answer increments a global, if the global reaches a certain number over the course of a few dialogues the romance is viable.
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Offline H. Hiis

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« Reply #29 on: October 24, 2005, 03:31:31 PM »
Actually, the way I have it planned right now, is that the game checks for these stats at the second LT. If you're lacky then, well, tough luck.

Perhaps a few other talks, too, or somesuch... but she won't check upon joining.
Think you can handle the heat?

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