Author Topic: Whatever happened to Edorem, he who loved Saerileth?  (Read 19492 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Lord Kain

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 1095
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • http://www.fanfiction.net/u/12483/
    • Email
Whatever happened to Edorem, he who loved Saerileth?
« Reply #45 on: August 26, 2005, 07:28:06 AM »
"And the god, generally, is the embodiment of his portfolio"

Right there is a line I can use. The good bhaal spawn PC IS the embodiment of the portfolio of redemption. He was the spawn of bhaal one of the most evil deities ever to grace the realms. Dispite having more taint then any of his siblings he defeated the evil with in and rose to become a being of good.

A good PC is the embodiment of the portfolio of redemption. Even more so if they converted Sarevok to Chaotic Good. So in the PC's case redemption would be created at his/her birth of divinity.
"Who--who are you?"
"Who? Who is but the form following the function of what... and what I am is a man in a mask."
"I can see that"
"Of course you can. I'm not questioning your powers of observation, I'm merely remarking on the paradox of asking a masked man who he is."

Offline Mightysword

  • Level 1
  • *
  • Posts: 134
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Whatever happened to Edorem, he who loved Saerileth?
« Reply #46 on: August 26, 2005, 09:26:09 AM »
Since it's too long too quote:

-----> About the marine:

- What I meant is that you're using un-normal condition that unlikely to be taken into account to "twisted" the argument into one side of favor. This is a situation that is a lot like when the PC with Jaheira is taken to the Harper's HQ in BGII. It's as simple as ability level, a Commando has a difficult level of 10 while the Marine only has a level 5 training, which is insufficient for the task. Under normal circumstance the Marine is bounded to failure.

- It's a matter of logic comparision, in order to determine a situation it's presumely they have a same base of effort. That means the Commando did his best and the Marine did his best, the Marine just doesn't have enough knowledge. It's like when you compare a Mig-29 and a F-15, in order to say which one is better in a real combat situation, it's automatically presumely they will have 2 pilots of the same caliber, at the same state of mind and will output the same level of performance. And I think this is supposed to be obvious. Of course, you don't ask some question like "Is one of the pilot drunk?" or "Is one of them bored at flying?"


-------> About the example:

- A fact is a fact. Double agent and side turning is not a new business. It happenned, since there is nothing as absolute. However, on the high level of the station, the chance of failure or betrayal must be reduced to minimum. However, back in the cold war due to the crisis this kind of things happen TOO often to be acceptable. Spies becomes double agents are too many.

- About Edorem's choice, I don't say a chosen is not someone who can not fail. However, they should have some ability to withstand challenger (since I think during our PM conversation you always say Chosen and Paladin are supposed to be exceptional individual), Edorem should only fail under extreme circumstance. No, he fails so easily, as you already put it, he fails like an idiot. This makes one doubts Tyr's wisdom about his choice. Again, the problem is not because Edorem fails, but because he fails like an idiot.



-----> about Aribeth:

- Uhm .... I think I answered your question whether "Tyr made a bad choice about Aribeth". And the answer is no. That's all, and I explained it. Aribeth's fallen is not Tyr's fault in the matter of choice, the Aribeth who fails him is not the Aribeth he chose. However, the Edorem who fails him IS the Edorem he chose.



-----> about the Porfolito:


- your example about Tomb is not really an example about Porfolio IMO. It's more like the limited of the "station". A station comes with 2 things, it gives one power, but it also limited one's action.

- Your example about Tomb is more like the Keseva's case. If Ganshuin denied the truth or you can not find him for example. Keseva will be found guilty and punished, no matter his reason is.

- Or in real life, we know that the court not always pass the right judgement, and sometime the one have money can buy their way out. This leading to sometime a person take the matter into their own hand. They may executed the convict in the name of juctice, and justice that was blinded by money, however, they step out of their station, it doesn't matter of what motive, they are punished.

- Or you can think like a King, his position gives him power, but it also put certain restriction on the King's action.

- The example is more like a stalemate IMO.
 
- To me, all of the gods in D&D serves their station because they desire the nature of the station. Bhaal desires to kill, Tyr desires justice ...etc... I never see a God in D&D who had an opposite nature to the nature of his station. Say, like a Bhaal who does not want to kill but have to do the killing. If a lawful Good Paladin takes the Bhaal's power, there will be a contradiction. The father of all gods makes sure each god does not step out of his station and invade area that are not under their juridiction, that's as far as a Porfolio goes. AKA the power of Bhaal can not be used like that of a god of life. However, I doubt that the porfolio define the dark or light side of the power, that's up to the god of the station. Remember the Solar said that : she is only here to prepare you for Aluando's prophecy, how this prophecy will exactly turn out are even unknow to the god.

Offline Feanor

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 1383
  • Karma: +1/-0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Whatever happened to Edorem, he who loved Saerileth?
« Reply #47 on: August 27, 2005, 03:13:22 AM »
Quote from: "Lord Kain"
"And the god, generally, is the embodiment of his portfolio"

Right there is a line I can use. The good bhaal spawn PC IS the embodiment of the portfolio of redemption. He was the spawn of bhaal one of the most evil deities ever to grace the realms. Dispite having more taint then any of his siblings he defeated the evil with in and rose to become a being of good.

A good PC is the embodiment of the portfolio of redemption. Even more so if they converted Sarevok to Chaotic Good. So in the PC's case redemption would be created at his/her birth of divinity.



       Smart one, Lord Kain.  :D If PC is granted the portofolio of redemption, that is very correct. But only IF. If Charname becomes god of redemption, then he will be a good god. But for this to happen, you need a divine sponsor. When a mortal ascends and has no claim over any portofolio, he needs a divine sponsor (a greater power) who may have developed a suitable role for the new godling and he will give to his pupil an aspect of his portofolio. Examples :
- Azuth who is the god of mages was sponsored by Mystra ;
- Red Knight by Tempus ;
- Velsharoon by Talos and Azuth ;
- Torm by Tyr.
      When you ascend, there are only the next solution : either you are sponsored by your deity, which gives you an aspect of his portofolio ; either you take the portofolio of a god who was defeated/killed by you or who has relinquished to you his portofolio (under threat or because he was tricked to do so).
      A god cannot simply take what portofolio wishes or create a new one : if it had been possible, then why Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul took the great risk of going against Jergal, who was a greater power at the time and he could have obliterated them in a blink. Also, Xvim, when he ascended, took a part of Cyric's portofolios. Cyric himself had to kill Leira to take her portofolio : if he could have taken a new one, why he would have risked so much by attacking another deity ? Or why Mask wastes his time scheming to take "intrigue" from Cyric instead of taking a new one ? Why Liira did not want to give Waukeen her portofolio back and she was so pissed off when she was forced to submit ? There are a lot of clues that indicates it's not so easy to assume a portofolio.
       But, indeed, Redemption is a good possibility, I will have to look into this and see if it can be taken from somewhere (as redemption can be considered an aspect of Lathander's portofolio Renewal), because Charname could not simply walk in and snatch a part of Lathander's domain. Anyway, Redemption could be a better solution that the one with "Charname could resist the taint".

Quote
- To me, all of the gods in D&D serves their station because they desire the nature of the station. Bhaal desires to kill, Tyr desires justice ...etc... I never see a God in D&D who had an opposite nature to the nature of his station. Say, like a Bhaal who does not want to kill but have to do the killing. If a lawful Good Paladin takes the Bhaal's power, there will be a contradiction. The father of all gods makes sure each god does not step out of his station and invade area that are not under their juridiction, that's as far as a Porfolio goes. AKA the power of Bhaal can not be used like that of a god of life. However, I doubt that the porfolio define the dark or light side of the power, that's up to the god of the station.


      That's the whole problem. The portofolio guides a god's actions, not viceversa, because his mindset will stick in time on the tenets of his domain. And maybe "corrupted" was not such a better word. "Altered" is more fitting. But when I say that a new god will be twisted by his portofolio, don't imagine that it will happen over night. It could be faster or slower, but it cannot be stopped. It could take even centuries, but it will happen. Kelemvor's alignment was chaotic good in life, now is lawful neutral. Mystra was neutral good, but she is slipping slowly towards true neutral. Cyric was neutral evil, now he is chaotic evil.


     And, since the debate was started from Mightysword's question "where was Tyr when Edorem needed him", I have to add that, when a charactes does not act according to the principles of his deity, the god stops answering his prayers.
     When Tyr let Edorem meet his end, it was not something good or bad, it was simply something which he had to do.
Real sucks, Barca rules !

I like Real only when it plays in Segunda Division !

It is said that Mount Celestia is a place of perfection. None else than Saerileth could have been the symbol of its splendor.

Offline Mightysword

  • Level 1
  • *
  • Posts: 134
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Whatever happened to Edorem, he who loved Saerileth?
« Reply #48 on: August 27, 2005, 07:19:37 AM »
Quote from: "Feanor"

     And, since the debate was started from Mightysword's question "where was Tyr when Edorem needed him", I have to add that, when a charactes does not act according to the principles of his deity, the god stops answering his prayers.
     When Tyr let Edorem meet his end, it was not something good or bad, it was simply something which he had to do.


That still leaves one question open about Tyr's choice on Ederom.

Offline Lord Kain

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 1095
  • Karma: +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
    • http://www.fanfiction.net/u/12483/
    • Email
Whatever happened to Edorem, he who loved Saerileth?
« Reply #49 on: August 27, 2005, 12:04:40 PM »
Of course we don't know what Ao himself intended.
I thought up the PC be coming a god of redemption because it appears to fit a good aligned PC. And there is no god of redemption in faerun.

Maybe the PC isn't creating redemption he's just taking on a portfolio that previously no god has held or perhaps even knew about. Ao held the portfolio tight because no deity fit that portfolio.

Should a good bhaalspawn take the lord of murders divine essense then he can fill a perviously empty


The closest thing to god of redemption in faerun is Eilistraee. The good drow goddess.


Just because no god has the portfolio doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Or let us say portfolios are created by mortals. And there prayers. So when the good PC takes on the divine essense because they embody redemption they can hear the voice of those people. Thus he/she didn't create redemption it was always there no other god could fill that postion.
"Who--who are you?"
"Who? Who is but the form following the function of what... and what I am is a man in a mask."
"I can see that"
"Of course you can. I'm not questioning your powers of observation, I'm merely remarking on the paradox of asking a masked man who he is."

Offline Feanor

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 1383
  • Karma: +1/-0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Whatever happened to Edorem, he who loved Saerileth?
« Reply #50 on: August 28, 2005, 05:57:35 AM »
Quote from: "Mightysword"
Quote from: "Feanor"

     And, since the debate was started from Mightysword's question "where was Tyr when Edorem needed him", I have to add that, when a charactes does not act according to the principles of his deity, the god stops answering his prayers.
     When Tyr let Edorem meet his end, it was not something good or bad, it was simply something which he had to do.


That still leaves one question open about Tyr's choice on Ederom.


      Tyr is the blind god.  :D

      But, now seriously, Tyr cannot know if a mortal is suitable for the task. A god could know the deeds or alignment of mortals, but they cannot know their future course : such knowledge is beyond their sight because the powers of the gods of Forgotten Realms are indeed great, but not unlimited. There are many cases when gods made fatal mistakes which led even to their own demise. For instance, Mystryl, the first goddess of magic, was not capable to foresee what Karsus will try to do and allowed the use of heavy magic - and the result was that Karsus endangered the Weave itself and destroyed the entire Netheril empire. Only after this, Mystra, Mystryl's successor, stripped the spells above of level 10 from the use of mortals. If Mystryl was not capable to foresee such a cataclysm, how could Tyr have foreseen Edorem's failure which, on a larger scale, is totally insignificant ?
Real sucks, Barca rules !

I like Real only when it plays in Segunda Division !

It is said that Mount Celestia is a place of perfection. None else than Saerileth could have been the symbol of its splendor.

Offline Feanor

  • Level 3
  • ***
  • Posts: 1383
  • Karma: +1/-0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Whatever happened to Edorem, he who loved Saerileth?
« Reply #51 on: August 28, 2005, 06:40:15 AM »
Quote from: "Lord Kain"



Or let us say portfolios are created by mortals. And there prayers. So when the good PC takes on the divine essense because they embody redemption they can hear the voice of those people. Thus he/she didn't create redemption it was always there no other god could fill that postion.


     Portofolios created by mortals ?  :?  Never heard of this... Do you have any source for that ? (Since you said "let us say", I suppose it is only your opinion...).
    But, if Charname wants to become the god of Redemption, he will have to strike a deal with Lathander or Ilmater, or else his days as a god will be short.


Quote
Of course we don't know what Ao himself intended.
I thought up the PC be coming a god of redemption because it appears to fit a good aligned PC. And there is no god of redemption in faerun.
Maybe the PC isn't creating redemption he's just taking on a portfolio that previously no god has held or perhaps even knew about. Ao held the portfolio tight because no deity fit that portfolio.


      Indeed. I must look if such a position was ever held by a god of Faerun. But about "no deity fit that portofolio", I would disagree : Lathander or Ilmater could have easily fit into this role. Especially Ilmater.

Quote
Just because no god has the portfolio doesn't mean it doesn't exist.


     It's complicated. First of all, we know the number of portofolios is limited. There are 2 clues which speak in favor of this theory :
1. The portofolios were written on the Tablets of Fate ; while the Tablets themselves held no power (despite of the contrary belief of the gods), this is a clue that the number of portofolios is finite ;
2. If there were free portofolios, the other gods won't lust so much after each other's propriety. When the Circle of Greater Powers took into consideration the idea of destroying Cyric and share his domains among themselves, Talos and Mask started salivating.


     BTW, since you insist so much, I assume you really want godhood...  :D
Real sucks, Barca rules !

I like Real only when it plays in Segunda Division !

It is said that Mount Celestia is a place of perfection. None else than Saerileth could have been the symbol of its splendor.

Offline argan

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 43
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • MSN Messenger - b_fallqvist@hotmail.com
    • View Profile
Whatever happened to Edorem, he who loved Saerileth?
« Reply #52 on: August 28, 2005, 07:58:53 AM »
Nice. Very well-written. :)