Author Topic: Whatever happened to Edorem, he who loved Saerileth?  (Read 19482 times)

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Offline Mightysword

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Whatever happened to Edorem, he who loved Saerileth?
« Reply #30 on: August 23, 2005, 11:56:53 AM »
Quote from: "Dead_Ghost"
Merely a question: why do you say that Edorem was never fit to be a Chosen? We know how he died, not how he was born or how he was educated. Just as a possibility, but, before SoA, Edorem could've been a true Paladin. Someone worthy of being Chosen. Then the matters of heart blinded him. So what? That can happen to anybody.
Unless I'm missing something, of course. :)


It's more or less directed at Feanor, since he will understand what I'm talking about, it's a matter of a 10 pages debate up to that point  :P


The point is the Edorem who became a Paladin and the Edorem who fails the code is one and the same. It didn't take much for Edorem to fail his Paladinhood. Unlike Aribeth who had undergo a series of hardship to be twisted into another person.


The quiality of the choice is pretty clear, Tyr picked a good choice for Searileth but a poor choice for Edorem. Because remember even though Searileth loves the PC with a passion, and a much stronger passion then Edorem can ever love her, she's still true to her code and her god, during SOA if you somehow offend Tyr or her belief, she kicks your ass goodbye. Edorem however, is too easy to be sway so it can be presumed it's his nature (and I can provide evidence that Edorem is pretty selfish in the matter, a trait that a Paladin is not supposed to have).

Now the question is, should Tyr step up and assume a potion of his responsibility in Edorem's fallen, or should he remain so self-respect.



Quote from: "Lord Kain"

Exactly a paladin is not required to like someone, he even apologizes to the PC for his harsh actions (and in the case of removing charisma enchanting items to find the PC is still charming) he apologizes for that.

You talk about how he should be fallen or no longer chosen after his actions. NOW tell me exactly give me the PRIME AND EXACT example of what he did.

He's guily of being a jerk and over jealous about protecting Saerileth once she makes it clear she loves the PC. HE LEAVES. He doesn't make a big fuss or a fight like Haer'Dalis.



Exactly, however from our discussion Feanor is basing his idea on Edorem as a whole, he's judging Edorem with 2 sitatuation combined together. There are 2 possibilities Edorem could act in SOA, he wouldl act as a honorable noble if you choose the Possitive answer, however, if you choose the negative answer then Edorem is really a heartless moron. For me I prefer to seperate 2 situations for 2 judgements, but Feanor prefer to judge it base on what you can say Edorem's nature.

Offline Feanor

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Whatever happened to Edorem, he who loved Saerileth?
« Reply #31 on: August 24, 2005, 03:18:38 AM »
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There, you said it yourself. A sentence that is undeserved serves no justice. So what is the god of justice if he is injustice in his own judgment? No matter what he thinks, want, under whatever circumstances, justice must prevail. Sometime a sentence can be harsh, sometime a sentence can be mercy, but they're ok as long as the convict is derserved the sentence, thus justice is served. However, even if a sentence is not harsh, yet the convict is not deserved the sentence, then there is no justice. So what're you trying to defend, Edorem fails, but obviously Tyr also fails his duty.


      I forgot to add something : is undeserved in my opinion. While I may not agree with Tyr's attitude, I prefer to seek for a more in-depth explanation than "Tyr is an idiot". While I consider harsh, Tyr may disagree and his opinion is the one who matters since he judges Edorem. For instance, in some arab countries, thieves have their hands cut : I consider that too harsh but that is their law and it is not up to me to decide.
      I don't think Tyr failed in his duty because his duty is not to promote mercy. Maybe you have this opinion about him because of Saerileth, but Saerileth is a little bit naive in regard to Tyr. Think of it this way : it was a test of Edorem's capabilities, like Tyr putting him in a ring against a balor and saying to him : prove your valor by slaying this fiend ; I gave you enough powers and I can do nothing more. But, instead of a test of courage, it was a test of wisdom : since he mistreated Charname because he was a Bhaalspawn, Tyr wanted to see if Edorem is capable to see the serpent hidden behind a flowering face. Well, he was not. And, if Tyr let Edorem die, that is not a big deal : greater powers can restore mortals to life anytime if they wish so. More cruel was Edorem's humiliation, but there was nothing Tyr could do about this.

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+ In Aribeth case, her fallen is complex. She suffer from the lost of her betro, she feels she's betrayed by the people she worked so hard for, she feels that her friends abandone her, and under foul magic she thinks her god turns his back on her. Her soul and heart are twisted, her fallen is understandable. The Aribeth who protected NWN and the Aribeth who attacked NWN to some decree, are 2 difference person


      I agree. If you want to cry over her fate, I will. But she still goes to the gallows, together with lord Nasher (since he is guilty as well of applying justice wrongly).

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+ Now look at Edorem's fallen. It's clear to us now that's it has been always his personality. He is not someone born with a trait suitable a paladin, left alone a Chosen. Why Tyr chose him? Edorem with his personality is destined to fail his paladinhood, the only question is how fast and which way, he's never meant to be a paladin. His fallen is a result of his superioty (Tyr) place a responsibility that he can not handle. His fallen is just a point in the middle of the path, trace it back to the source, what is the reason of his fallen. He falls because he is choses to be something he's not meant to be. This is Tyr's fault, he made a bad choice, and now punishing Edorem for whatever reason is just a way to blame his own mistake upon his chosen.


     Why would you think so ? Remember that Saerileth was chosen by Tyr when she was only 5, when her personality was not defined yet. If Edorem was picked also at young age, the situation would be the same. Second, people can change for worse or for better. The gods cannot foresee this. I already told you about Sammaster, who was a Chosen of Mystra, but, instead of taking a path similar to Elminster, he has fallen for evil and founded the Cult of the Dragon. Since Mystra, which is a goddess more powerful than Tyr, was incapable of preventing Sammaster's fall and the disaster which he caused, how Tyr could have done what you ask from him ? My answer was that Edorem maybe was indeed suited to be a chosen when he was picked (meaning that he behaved according to Tyr's tenets at that time), but he failed in the most tough trial of his life. Now, maybe he realized that, but Tyr felt it was his duty to justice to apply a punishment to Edorem. (Maybe Edorem is a kind of Anakin Skywalker  :D )


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THink about this situation: a commander decide to send a marine on a commandos taks, and the marine fails. So, who should take most of the fault, the commander, or the marine? Will the commander have the gut to accept his mistake in choosing the wrong person for the wrong mission, or will he be so self-respect that he will let the marine takes all the responsibility and discipline in order for him to maintain his good image?


      You forgot to say one thing, which is very important : if the marine failed because his mission required him to disarm some bombs and he had no proper knowledge it about it, then it is the commander's fault. If the marine failed because instead of focusing on his mission he quarelled with a comrade, then it is the marine's fault.
      And I want to say something : the gods of Forgotten Realms can be duped. They don't know everything.

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Edorem fails because he can not live up to his code, but remember there is also the matter of who choosing him for the task the beginning. But I guess a self serving god like Tyr will never have the gut to step up and accept his mistake, if Edorem fails, it's all Edorem's fault isn't it.


     In this case, I advise you not to speak your opinion about Tyr to Saerileth.  :D
     But I call Edorem's fate undeserved not because he died. After all, very few paladins die in their beds. If he had died heroicly, in Feanor or Fingolfin's style, I would not have had problems it. But his fate is cruel for 2 reasons :
1. He has his dreams crushed a second time.
2. He died like a fool, backstabbed by the woman he fell in love with.
     So, I ask you, what Tyr could have done ?
     Second, what was Tyr's mistake ? That he picked Edorem to be his chosen ?
     As I said, I dont't agree with what happened to Edorem, but on the other hand I was expecting Tyr to apply some punishment to him. Maybe that was the test : Tyr let Edorem to fare alone because he wanted to give him another chance to prove he is capable of being a chosen. Another test of heart, to say so. And Edorem failed again (this time by being simply dumb).

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Exactly a paladin is not required to like someone, he even apologizes to the PC for his harsh actions (and in the case of removing charisma enchanting items to find the PC is still charming) he apologizes for that.

You talk about how he should be fallen or no longer chosen after his actions. NOW tell me exactly give me the PRIME AND EXACT example of what he did.

He's guily of being a jerk and over jealous about protecting Saerileth once she makes it clear she loves the PC. HE LEAVES. He doesn't make a big fuss or a fight like Haer'Dalis.


      Well, there is a problem here. It also depends on the course which he taken. In Sillara's story, we do not know how he behaved when he was rejected. Since the ending is so cruel, I assume the worst.
      But since you asked me the prime and exact example of what he did. There are some.

1. Look one of them : one of the main tenets of Tyr's faith is "always be true and just in your actions". Do you remember that Edorem himself says "I have accused you unjustly". And not even this is the main problem : what would piss off Tyr in this situation (and I guarantee you that he *will* be upset) is the fact that Edorem was driven in his accusation by jealousy. The fact that he apologized to Charname for this does not matter too much. Lathander would overlook this, but Tyr unlikely.

2. A paladin is not required to like someone, but he is required to treat every good person with respect. This is for all paladins. The law does not make exceptions in cases of personal enmities or love rivalries. Even more, a paladin who lays false accusation on or even simply offends a character who is carrying out a task for the paladin's god risks execution. For the next reasons : first, it is simply forbidden to mistreat an ally of your god, and second, it is considered that the paladin endangers a holy quest.

        And I also add what Tyr says about himself (very important if you want to understand his actions) :

"I am not the god of fairness. I am the God of Justice, and that is a very different thing." - Tyr (Crucible )


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The quiality of the choice is pretty clear, Tyr picked a good choice for Searileth but a poor choice for Edorem. Because remember even though Searileth loves the PC with a passion, and a much stronger passion then Edorem can ever love her, she's still true to her code and her god, during SOA if you somehow offend Tyr or her belief, she kicks your ass goodbye. Edorem however, is too easy to be sway so it can be presumed it's his nature (and I can provide evidence that Edorem is pretty selfish in the matter, a trait that a Paladin is not supposed to have).


       Personally, I don't give so much credit to Tyr. Gods in Forgotten Realms can make mistakes, as they are not perfect. But if a chosen fails in his duties, then I think the fault belongs to him, not to the god. It is the chosen's heart and will who proved to be weak. In Sammaster's case - he is the perfect example of a fallen chosen - the guilt belongs to Sammaster, not to Mystra, and Lathander was just in destroying him. My opinion, at least.

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It's more or less directed at Feanor, since he will understand what I'm talking about, it's a matter of a 10 pages debate up to that point  


The point is the Edorem who became a Paladin and the Edorem who fails the code is one and the same. It didn't take much for Edorem to fail his Paladinhood. Unlike Aribeth who had undergo a series of hardship to be twisted into another person.


    Yes, I know. But there is a difference : the noble Edorem and the selfish Edorem are the same because they appear at the same moment and in the same circumstances. I consider that the noble Edorem just did not have the opportunity to behave poorly. On the other hand, Edorem from the story seems to be different than the one from the mod and it is normal to be so, there are 200 years since then. Maybe Edorem who was picked by Tyr (10 or 100 years before, it does not matter) was indeed a good choice. Or maybe Tyr was ignorant to this part of Edorem. You get the idea : "you don't know if someone is valiant until he is sent to battle". On the other hand, I can't say if he was worthy or not when he was picked by Tyr simply because I don't have the data. If he was chosen 100 years ago, then in 100 years people can change a lot.


       BTW, I found out what was Zarl about :

Miltiades was a paladin of Tyr in a city called Turell (or something like Turell), and was so brave that other tyrians gave him a magical helm, th Holy shield of Tyr and a runic sword to fight evils.
Turell stood near Phlan, and Miltiades was stewart and guardian of the city.
Zarl was a warrior-mage who besieged the city for over a year; during the siege Miltiades fought bravely and seek a face-to-face with Zarl, who refused every time.
When the city was near to fall Miltiades seek to take Zarl with stealth in his camp, and in the battle Zarl was killed, but also Miltiades fall to his enemy's men.
After the death of Miltiades Turell was leveled by Zarl's men.
Zarl's spirit remained near Miltiade's tomb, and the paladin was turned into an undead knight for his deed.
Tyr raised the knight to fight Bane's power near Phlan, so he can be granted eternal peace.


         If you ask me, Miltiades fate was even more unfair than Edorem's. After all, Zarl was evil. But are paladins compelled to deny such tricks ? Are. Did Miltiades broke the paladin's code by this ? He did. Although Tyr had even more reasons to forgive Miltiades, the hammer of justice hit him without mercy.



        Also, something to say to MightySword : you remember that I said I don't ascend because I don't trust the power of Bhaal. I tell you why : because, if Charname ascends, he will assume Bhaal's former portofolio, murder, and become the patron of assassins. Also, as a god, Charname will have power, but he will have much less freedom in his choice than even a mere mortal. I strongly suspect that an ascended Charname will be compelled to act according to his portofolio and he will end corrupted. After all, why do you think all your good companions advise you to deny the taint ?
Real sucks, Barca rules !

I like Real only when it plays in Segunda Division !

It is said that Mount Celestia is a place of perfection. None else than Saerileth could have been the symbol of its splendor.

Offline Mightysword

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Whatever happened to Edorem, he who loved Saerileth?
« Reply #32 on: August 24, 2005, 09:54:07 AM »
Quote from: "Feanor"


     Why would you think so ? Remember that Saerileth was chosen by Tyr when she was only 5, when her personality was not defined yet. If Edorem was picked also at young age, the situation would be the same. Second, people can change for worse or for better. The gods cannot foresee this. I already told you about Sammaster, who was a Chosen of Mystra, but, instead of taking a path similar to Elminster, he has fallen for evil and founded the Cult of the Dragon. Since Mystra, which is a goddess more powerful than Tyr, was incapable of preventing Sammaster's fall and the disaster which he caused, how Tyr could have done what you ask from him ? My answer was that Edorem maybe was indeed suited to be a chosen when he was picked (meaning that he behaved according to Tyr's tenets at that time), but he failed in the most tough trial of his life. Now, maybe he realized that, but Tyr felt it was his duty to justice to apply a punishment to Edorem. (Maybe Edorem is a kind of Anakin Skywalker  :D )





Why would I think so? Because I think Tyr doesn't choose his chosen by random. He chooses someone for a station, and that station comes with responsibility, choosing someone underserve will endanger the effectiness of that station, of that person, and the people under the influence of that station. Like when choosing a guard, you have to choose a competent, if not, the guard himself will be at risk and the people or things that the guard is supposed to guard will also be at risk.


The main point is Edorem is soooo easily to be swayed in the matter, unlike Aribeth, or well, even Anakin, he fails so easily which clearly imply that he's not meant to be for that station. Aribeth and Anakin fails when they're twisted, when they no longer have "control", Edorem fails because simply he want to fail. So the final logic is: Tyr makes a bad choice, and he should assumb a potion of responsibility.

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      You forgot to say one thing, which is very important : if the marine failed because his mission required him to disarm some bombs and he had no proper knowledge it about it, then it is the commander's fault. If the marine failed because instead of focusing on his mission he quarelled with a comrade, then it is the marine's fault.



I think the situation is an explanation enough. A marine and a Commandos level task. We know that not every mission can be classisfied as a Commandos task, does it really need another explanation?

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      And I want to say something : the gods of Forgotten Realms can be duped. They don't know everything.




So? That means they can make mistake, however, will they accept that mistake? That's what counts. Saying they make a mistake doesn't help when they won't accept that mistake, what is the point if they always blame their mistake on their servant?






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     In this case, I advise you not to speak your opinion about Tyr to Saerileth.  :D
     But I call Edorem's fate undeserved not because he died. After all, very few paladins die in their beds. If he had died heroicly, in Feanor or Fingolfin's style, I would not have had problems it. But his fate is cruel for 2 reasons :
1. He has his dreams crushed a second time.
2. He died like a fool, backstabbed by the woman he fell in love with.
     So, I ask you, what Tyr could have done ?
     Second, what was Tyr's mistake ? That he picked Edorem to be his chosen ?
     As I said, I dont't agree with what happened to Edorem, but on the other hand I was expecting Tyr to apply some punishment to him. Maybe that was the test : Tyr let Edorem to fare alone because he wanted to give him another chance to prove he is capable of being a chosen. Another test of heart, to say so. And Edorem failed again (this time by being simply dumb).




Does his action deserve death? Did he commit some kind of crime? Did he do something that deserve punishment? Tyr wants to punish him but for what, and even for a reason then what kind of punishment it should be. Fallen is not a crime, it's a failure, that's why fallen Paladin becomes a fighter, not executed. A test you say? A test that will kill the subject in the process. Uhmm ... tell me, is Tyr a god or a tyrant? I have seen the test of courage of many kind, however failure does not deserve death, if the subject is doom to failure usually the superior will try to bail him out, not letting him to rot!!



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        Also, something to say to MightySword : you remember that I said I don't ascend because I don't trust the power of Bhaal. I tell you why : because, if Charname ascends, he will assume Bhaal's former portofolio, murder, and become the patron of assassins. Also, as a god, Charname will have power, but he will have much less freedom in his choice than even a mere mortal. I strongly suspect that an ascended Charname will be compelled to act according to his portofolio and he will end corrupted. After all, why do you think all your good companions advise you to deny the taint ?



All? Heh, the only one I can remember that advise you to stay away is Nalia, Keldon - no, Imoen - No, Anomen - No, Aerie - No. Plus what you suspect doesn't change the fact. In the Epilogue if you're a good character it clearly say that you use the power for goodness and strike fear into the heart of the evil across the realm. Power is merely a tool, there is no such thing as a portofolio, the more powerful the tool is the easier it can be corrupted, but that doesn't mean it MUST be corrupted, as long as one has the will to subdue it.


There is something that people usually assump, but there is always room for exeception. You're right to assume that Bhaal's power will lead to corrupted, but it can be difference, like everyone is right to presume that Drow is evil, however they are exception. At the end, it's the people who wield the tool, not the tool itself that decides the matter.

Offline Lord Kain

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Whatever happened to Edorem, he who loved Saerileth?
« Reply #33 on: August 24, 2005, 11:34:20 AM »
bhaal's portfolio is death, not murder. Bhaal simply chose the murderious aspect of death
Death should not be confused with portfolio of The Dead.

Bhaals power is tainted because of bhaals actions not because it happends to be death. Death comes to all beings even gods.
Kelemvor took the portfoilo of the dead from cyric which had before come from Myrkul and he's not evil.

You can have a good god of death. A god who brings death to those who do evil. Or a god who protects people from premature death.
"Who--who are you?"
"Who? Who is but the form following the function of what... and what I am is a man in a mask."
"I can see that"
"Of course you can. I'm not questioning your powers of observation, I'm merely remarking on the paradox of asking a masked man who he is."

Offline Undertaker

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Whatever happened to Edorem, he who loved Saerileth?
« Reply #34 on: August 24, 2005, 12:01:02 PM »
I have just read that chapter. :)  :thumbsup:
Evil hidden everywhere
Evil has a chilling stare
Null and void of any care
Is where the answer lies
It does no good to beg or cry
It does no good to question why
It does no good it never dies
Evil never dies

Offline Feanor

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Whatever happened to Edorem, he who loved Saerileth?
« Reply #35 on: August 25, 2005, 08:26:34 AM »
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Why would I think so? Because I think Tyr doesn't choose his chosen by random. He chooses someone for a station, and that station comes with responsibility, choosing someone underserve will endanger the effectiness of that station, of that person, and the people under the influence of that station. Like when choosing a guard, you have to choose a competent, if not, the guard himself will be at risk and the people or things that the guard is supposed to guard will also be at risk.


        True, but : if that one failed not because of some technical disabilities, but because of himself, who is to blame ? What you said about choosing a guard is very true, but you should also define the term "competent". If the commander chose a guard whose skills with the sword were not enough to keep the enemy at bay, then the commander is to blame. But if the guard failed because a pretty girl persuaded him to give her the key of the prison, I don't think the commander is to blame.


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So? That means they can make mistake, however, will they accept that mistake? That's what counts. Saying they make a mistake doesn't help when they won't accept that mistake, what is the point if they always blame their mistake on their servant?


        By mistake, you refer to the fact that Tyr chose poorly, to the fact that he did not support his paladins in need or to the fact that he punished or allowed them to be punished.
        And, in Aribeth's case, Tyr could have done nothing after her betrayal. If Aribeth was killed in battle or executed afterwards, she goes straight to hell simply because any dead person goes straight to that plane which befits his alignment. Aribeth became lawful evil, so when she died it was inevitable to end up in Baator and Tyr could have done nothing about it.
    And saying "they should accept their mistake", do you imply that Tyr should have stroke Kamen down (in Edorem's case) and obliterate Morag's army ? The statement is quite vague. What Tyr should have done ?

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Does his action deserve death? Did he commit some kind of crime? Did he do something that deserve punishment? Tyr wants to punish him but for what, and even for a reason then what kind of punishment it should be. . A test you say? A test that will kill the subject in the process. Uhmm ... tell me, is Tyr a god or a tyrant? I have seen the test of courage of many kind, however failure does not deserve death, if the subject is doom to failure usually the superior will try to bail him out, not letting him to rot!!


     First of all, it was not Tyr the one who guided Arlluvia's blade. Tyr can be blamed for the fact that he did not interfered directly, but Edorem died first because of his own stupidity. And many times failure is indeed punished by death. Mightysword, I have the impression that you neglect the fact that US laws are not Tyr's laws as well. Maybe you did not consider his action deserved death. Neither do I, but Tyr has another opinion (and for this, you don't need to know too much about him, just to make a comparison between Miltiades and Edorem ; surely you did not expect that a god who punished so harshly a knight for violating his ethos - although, practically, he did nothing wrong - to completely overlook Edorem's deeds). And, BTW, to your examples about the guard and the marine I can reply with another one : during the cold war, a lot of soviet spies were discovered by the FBI. Every time the ones put to prison were the spies, not the ones who hired them. If I accept your reasoning, it would mean that a part of guilt falls on those who hired them, because they did not realize they can be bribed. That is what you say : that a part of the responsibility belongs to Tyr, because he did not realize Edorem acts upon his feelings, not upon his wisdom.


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Fallen is not a crime, it's a failure, that's why fallen Paladin becomes a fighter, not executed


     You are in error. The law of Order of the Radiant Heart : "A member who violates his vow to the order, or commits an act heinous enough to cost him his paladinhood, is beheaded. Should the member flee, the order hunts him down." (quote from the paladin's handbook) If the paladin is affiliated to a lawful good organisation, then he will be harshly punished. A fallen paladin becames a fighter if he has no such affiliation.

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In the Epilogue if you're a good character it clearly say that you use the power for goodness and strike fear into the heart of the evil across the realm. Power is merely a tool, there is no such thing as a portofolio, the more powerful the tool is the easier it can be corrupted, but that doesn't mean it MUST be corrupted, as long as one has the will to subdue it.


     I would hardly take BG's epilogues as good references... And why do you think I asked you once what do you know about Forgotten Realms universe ? Because the games are full of inconsistencies.

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Power is merely a tool, there is no such thing as a portofolio, the more powerful the tool is the easier it can be corrupted, but that doesn't mean it MUST be corrupted, as long as one has the will to subdue it.


        What ??? "There is no such thing as a portofolio" ? Uhmm... Mightysword, you just blow up the entire ideology of the faiths of Forgotten Realms...

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the more powerful the tool is the easier it can be corrupted, but that doesn't mean it MUST be corrupted, as long as one has the will to subdue it.



        There is no such will, Mightysword. Do you remember what I told you, that a god in Forgotten Realms is more limited in his choices ? Because a mortal can change for the better, a god cannot. A god views his duties only through the eyes of his domains. When a mortal ascends, it is not only a matter of an individual which is granted a lot of power, the mortal practically will merge with his portofolio (meaning that he will start acting according to their portofolio). It happens, and no strong will can prevent that. There is only one solution : to emphasize the positive aspects of your domain. Or this, or you end up like Bhaal. But the problem remains : with a portofolio like death, you cannot act always good. Death goes to good people as well as to evil ones. In the best case, you will end up neutral. Second, the duty of the gods is not to do good, but to promote the tenets of their domains. If, somehow, a god manages to ignore this (which is impossible, but let's suppose this), then that god risks to be annihilated by the Council of the Greater Powers. When Cyric was suspected to be lax in his duties of spreading strife and hatred (which, BTW, would have been a good thing), then he was very close to be obliterated and he was freed of charges only when the greater powers concluded that he remained as wicked as he always was.



       
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At the end, it's the people who wield the tool, not the tool itself that decides the matter.


       It is far more than a tool. If you view godhood as a kind of mighty device to be wielded by someone as he wishes, then you are right. But it is not this way.

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Bhaals power is tainted because of bhaals actions not because it happends to be death. Death comes to all beings even gods.
Kelemvor took the portfoilo of the dead from cyric which had before come from Myrkul and he's not evil.


        Well, there is a major difference between Kelemvor and Charname, which makes Charname's situation even more complex. Kelemvor's ascension to godhood is mainly Cyric's fault. Cyric wanted to find Kelemvor's soul and his endeavours made the inhabitants of the Realm of the Deads put their faith in him. When Kelemvor was freed from his imprisonment, he managed to overthrow Cyric and he ascended because of their faith (and they demanded from him justice and fair trials, being fed up with Cyric's tyranny). But Charname has the essence of Bhaal in him. When he won't be a mortal anymore, what will remain ? Also, when the news about a heir to Bhaal's throne spread, who shall become his worshippers ? If he starts to be worshipped by evil-doers, then this combination (dominion over death + evil worshippers + essence of Bhaal) is explosive.

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Kelemvor took the portfoilo of the dead from cyric which had before come from Myrkul and he's not evil.


       He is lawful neutral, while in life he was good. He still had an alignment change. And you forgot one thing : while he cannot be labeled as evil, Kelemvor has dominion over the Wall of the Faithless. There, the faithless suffer worse any criminal, although many of them do not deserve such a fate. That despite of the fact that Kelemvor is not evil. For instance, if Charname had become Lord of the Dead, he would have had to pin Valygar's soul on the wall of the faithless, no matter how good the PC was.
      And, BTW, in Prince of Lies and Crucible, you can see how Mystra and Kelemvor are slowly stripped off of their humanity.

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You can have a good god of death. A god who brings death to those who do evil. Or a god who protects people from premature death.


      You can't. First of all, if the PC becomes Lord of Death, then he cannot have such preferences for the same reasons why Mystra is not allowed to deny to evil spellcaster the use of magic, although her alignment is neutral good.


      BTW, we do not know what happened with Edorem after his death. Aribeth ended in Hells because, by turning into a blackguard, her alignment shifted to lawful evil and her soul could not have entered Mount Celestia. In Edorem's case, if he was still lawful good, then he was probably taken by Tyr into his heaven (there is still the problem if Edorem could be placed among the False, but I don't think so).
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Offline Lord Kain

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Whatever happened to Edorem, he who loved Saerileth?
« Reply #36 on: August 25, 2005, 01:57:40 PM »
At anyrate taking bhaals divine essense doesn't mean he takes his portfolio. Infact the PC can created a hole new portfolio.

" Through friends and enemies, you have conquered your heritage, turning shadow to light, and now the infernal power of Bhaal no longer holds sway"

I guess you could call it redemption. For the PC is one who could fight againts his evil heritage. He could have a chuch dedicaded on the dogma to fight for good reguardless of your past or heritage.

The good PC could simply let Cyric keep the portfolio of death and find his own nitch among the powers.
"Who--who are you?"
"Who? Who is but the form following the function of what... and what I am is a man in a mask."
"I can see that"
"Of course you can. I'm not questioning your powers of observation, I'm merely remarking on the paradox of asking a masked man who he is."

Offline Mightysword

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Whatever happened to Edorem, he who loved Saerileth?
« Reply #37 on: August 25, 2005, 03:01:24 PM »
Quote from: "Feanor"

        True, but : if that one failed not because of some technical disabilities, but because of himself, who is to blame ? What you said about choosing a guard is very true, but you should also define the term "competent". If the commander chose a guard whose skills with the sword were not enough to keep the enemy at bay, then the commander is to blame. But if the guard failed because a pretty girl persuaded him to give her the key of the prison, I don't think the commander is to blame.



Again, that's not the point, it's called twisting the situation. A commandos level task meaning a task that required special level of training, and knowlege (sabotage, epionage, inflitrate ...etc...), in short, is complex. One can NOT expect a marine with regular training to actual complete those job. I really don't understand all your reasoning with the pretty girl ...etc... they are not fix, it's just like trying twisting the situation into a very "un-normal" cirscumstance to favor one side of an argument. When taking into a fact for debating it is supposed to be a neutral case.



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        By mistake, you refer to the fact that Tyr chose poorly, to the fact that he did not support his paladins in need or to the fact that he punished or allowed them to be punished.
        And, in Aribeth's case, Tyr could have done nothing after her betrayal. If Aribeth was killed in battle or executed afterwards, she goes straight to hell simply because any dead person goes straight to that plane which befits his alignment. Aribeth became lawful evil, so when she died it was inevitable to end up in Baator and Tyr could have done nothing about it.
    And saying "they should accept their mistake", do you imply that Tyr should have stroke Kamen down (in Edorem's case) and obliterate Morag's army ? The statement is quite vague. What Tyr should have done ?





I never said Tyr made a poor choice about Aribeth. I said he should have done something at the moment she needs him the most, but I never said Aribeth was a "poor choice". Edorem, however, was. I already said there are 2 Ariebth, the one who protect and the one who destroy NW. Her fallen is a result of a twisted process. Tyr could have done something to prevent it, but it's not his fault not forseen such a thing, in Edorem case, there is only one Edorem, and Tyr was supposed to pick a more approriate choice for his chosen. Aribeth's fallen is unpredictable, Edorem's fallen is inevitable.



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     First of all, it was not Tyr the one who guided Arlluvia's blade. Tyr can be blamed for the fact that he did not interfered directly, but Edorem died first because of his own stupidity. And many times failure is indeed punished by death. Mightysword, I have the impression that you neglect the fact that US laws are not Tyr's laws as well. Maybe you did not consider his action deserved death. Neither do I, but Tyr has another opinion (and for this, you don't need to know too much about him, just to make a comparison between Miltiades and Edorem ; surely you did not expect that a god who punished so harshly a knight for violating his ethos - although, practically, he did nothing wrong - to completely overlook Edorem's deeds). And, BTW, to your examples about the guard and the marine I can reply with another one : during the cold war, a lot of soviet spies were discovered by the FBI. Every time the ones put to prison were the spies, not the ones who hired them. If I accept your reasoning, it would mean that a part of guilt falls on those who hired them, because they did not realize they can be bribed. That is what you say : that a part of the responsibility belongs to Tyr, because he did not realize Edorem acts upon his feelings, not upon his wisdom.



haha my friends, you're quite mistaking in your example about FBI and Soviet. The fact is the responsiblity indeed rests on the shoulders of the Soviet's leaders. There are more then just meet the eyes. The fact that so many Russian's agents failed to the bribe because they failed to support their agents. The Russian army have been always in a crisis, soldiers don't get paid, officers can not make a living with their salary. The fact is that not even the agents become double agent, a LOT of KGB's top secret information (KGB is the Soviet's equivalent to US's CIA) were also "sold" to America by Russians spies, officiers selling their medal to earn some money, high rank general selling weapon to the black market, that's the whole picture my friend.

 In this case it's not matter of a poor choice on the agents, but it's more like you're sending your soldiers into battle without any logistic support. A good or a bad soldier doesn't really a matter if they're sent into the field un-equiped, it is nature for them to fail.


Tyr picked someone who doesn't have a will to begin with, in the case of the Soviet's agent, it doesn't matter they pick someone with a will or not, because simply they don't provide a mean.



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     You are in error. The law of Order of the Radiant Heart : "A member who violates his vow to the order, or commits an act heinous enough to cost him his paladinhood, is beheaded. Should the member flee, the order hunts him down." (quote from the paladin's handbook) If the paladin is affiliated to a lawful good organisation, then he will be harshly punished. A fallen paladin becames a fighter if he has no such affiliation.


That's the code of the Order of the Radiant Heart, they're an organization. Tyr is not. Even more then that, Edorem is a chosen, and Tyr is a god of justice.




Quote

     I would hardly take BG's epilogues as good references... And why do you think I asked you once what do you know about Forgotten Realms universe ? Because the games are full of inconsistencies.


And yet it was one of the most successful D&D game, are you saying your own idea will hold more value?


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        What ??? "There is no such thing as a portofolio" ? Uhmm... Mightysword, you just blow up the entire ideology of the faiths of Forgotten Realms...


No, you take it as a wrong way. The portofolio means that the PC can not become a godness of love, or life, he will always be a god of death. However, there is no such thing to "dictate" how he should use that power. Death does not mean evil, death does not mean bad if it comes at the right time and the right situation. There is no such thing that forces the PC will have to go and kill everyone. Bhaal was an evil god, he did it because he wanted and he has the desire to kill, his power only makes he do it easier.



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        There is no such will, Mightysword. Do you remember what I told you, that a god in Forgotten Realms is more limited in his choices ? Because a mortal can change for the better, a god cannot. A god views his duties only through the eyes of his domains. When a mortal ascends, it is not only a matter of an individual which is granted a lot of power, the mortal practically will merge with his portofolio (meaning that he will start acting according to their portofolio). It happens, and no strong will can prevent that. There is only one solution : to emphasize the positive aspects of your domain. Or this, or you end up like Bhaal. But the problem remains : with a portofolio like death, you cannot act always good. Death goes to good people as well as to evil ones. In the best case, you will end up neutral. Second, the duty of the gods is not to do good, but to promote the tenets of their domains. If, somehow, a god manages to ignore this (which is impossible, but let's suppose this), then that god risks to be annihilated by the Council of the Greater Powers. When Cyric was suspected to be lax in his duties of spreading strife and hatred (which, BTW, would have been a good thing), then he was very close to be obliterated and he was freed of charges only when the greater powers concluded that he remained as wicked as he always was.



See above.

Offline Feanor

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Whatever happened to Edorem, he who loved Saerileth?
« Reply #38 on: August 26, 2005, 05:48:18 AM »
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Again, that's not the point, it's called twisting the situation. A commandos level task meaning a task that required special level of training, and knowlege (sabotage, epionage, inflitrate ...etc...), in short, is complex. One can NOT expect a marine with regular training to actual complete those job. I really don't understand all your reasoning with the pretty girl ...etc... they are not fix, it's just like trying twisting the situation into a very "un-normal" cirscumstance to favor one side of an argument. When taking into a fact for debating it is supposed to be a neutral case.


      My point was : it was not a physical inability which led Edorem on this path. It was his incapacity to keep his emotions at bay and this is not the responsibility of Tyr. As a man, he is allowed his feelings, but as a chosen he must act on his wisdom. Too many times he lets his emotions cloud his judgement and that is why I said that Tyr should have dismissed him.

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I never said Tyr made a poor choice about Aribeth. I said he should have done something at the moment she needs him the most, but I never said Aribeth was a "poor choice". Edorem, however, was. I already said there are 2 Ariebth, the one who protect and the one who destroy NW. Her fallen is a result of a twisted process. Tyr could have done something to prevent it, but it's not his fault not forseen such a thing


       But, as I understand, you said that Tyr is self-serving because he allowed Aribeth to be punished. *Before* her betrayal I perfectly agree with you that Tyr could have tried to guide Aribeth out of her misery. Well, for some reason (he could not or he did not want to, we do not know), he did not do it. But, AFTER the betrayal, there was no way Tyr could have forgiven her. As I said, her alignment was lawful evil and every lawful evil person goes to Baator. This is a law above the will of the gods. There are 2 parts in our debate : before and after the betrayal. I had the impression that you suggested (if I am wrong, please correct me) Aribeth could have been forgiven of her punishment in Hells. Which could not have happened.

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haha my friends, you're quite mistaking in your example about FBI and Soviet. The fact is the responsiblity indeed rests on the shoulders of the Soviet's leaders. There are more then just meet the eyes. The fact that so many Russian's agents failed to the bribe because they failed to support their agents. The Russian army have been always in a crisis, soldiers don't get paid, officers can not make a living with their salary. The fact is that not even the agents become double agent, a LOT of KGB's top secret information (KGB is the Soviet's equivalent to US's CIA) were also "sold" to America by Russians spies, officiers selling their medal to earn some money, high rank general selling weapon to the black market, that's the whole picture my friend.


    I am quite a loss what you say, so I use an example to be more clear : Kim Philby was one of the most famous agents of KGB, infiltrated in the Intelligence Service, who defected in USSR in 1963. My point is : is Philby had not managed to flee and he had been sent to jail, then the only one responsible for his fate is himself, not the boss of Intelligence Service. The same in the case of any paladin : if the paladin falls, then he is the one responsible for the punishment which will be delivered on him, not his deity. The fact that the god did not help him does not represent an excuse.

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That's the code of the Order of the Radiant Heart, they're an organization. Tyr is not. Even more then that, Edorem is a chosen, and Tyr is a god of justice.


       We started from your statement "a fallen paladin is not executed, he just becomes a fighter". You were not refering to Edorem.  :P  And, if you do refer to him, I remind you that he is a member of the Church of Tyr.

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And yet it was one of the most successful D&D game, are you saying your own idea will hold more value?


     It's not my own idea, is knowledge.  :P  But I will give you some samples why I generally prefer to consult a second source before accepting something from BG2. Often Bioware has great problems with logic :
- after you kill Yaga-shura, Charname's mother tells him of his birth. She says "In the Time of Troubles my lord of murder came and whisper into my ear that I was to carry one of the children..." But BG1 says the PC is 20 years old in 1368 DR and Time of Troubles occured in 1358 DR, when the PC was already 10 years old, according to Bioware's own statement. Bioware shot himself in the leg ;
- in BG1, Gorion tells you that Bhaal forced himself upon the PC's mother. In ToB, we found out that she accepted her fate willingly.
- The game implies that Bhaal has used an avatar to conceive the PC. In such a case, none of the races you can play in the game would not have been available. The PC would have been a kind of tiefling.
- The cowled wizards are not the one who enforce the laws against magic in Athkatla. In fact, they are an illegal organisation who favor the use of magic. Also, it makes no sense why the Cowled Wizards can detect the use of magic only on the streets of the city.
- Bhaal did not have his realm in the Abyss, but in Gehenna.

      Just some samples.


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No, you take it as a wrong way. The portofolio means that the PC can not become a godness of love, or life, he will always be a god of death. However, there is no such thing to "dictate" how he should use that power. Death does not mean evil, death does not mean bad if it comes at the right time and the right situation. There is no such thing that forces the PC will have to go and kill everyone. Bhaal was an evil god, he did it because he wanted and he has the desire to kill, his power only makes he do it easier.


      First, can I know on what do you rely your claim ? Because I have the impression you see godhood as you prefer it to be. My sources are the Avatar's Series, Faith&Avatars and Powers&Pantheons.
       What you miss is that the portofolio has a strong influence upon the god's mindset. I started a discussion about gods' freedom of choice at Candlekeep as well. I quote some opinions :




"If we go by the personality/psychological descriptioons of the gods form the post-Avatar series books (Prince of Lies and Crucible), I would have to say that it is impossible for a deity to go against their own protfolio. As an example, I will cite Mystra's revelation of 'looking through her fellow deities' eyes'. As is seen in this scene, each god percieves the world around them in a light that reflects their own portfolio. Mystra saw the meeting of deities as a spell lab, while Tyr views it as a courtroom, etc.

This demonstrates a decidedly single-minded view of the cosmos. Remember, while some of these deities were once mortal, they are no longer so. They are the embodiments of the portfolio they hold sway over. This goes a long way to explaining why a good deity like Lathander would try to destroy the world leading to the Dawn Cataclysm. It was what he is. You could even say that once the idea was presented to him, whether by another deity or from his own imaginings, he had no choice but to act on it, feeling that this was what he had to do to continue filling his role. This is why Ao did not destroy him for his actions, and why Torm was resored to life after his destruction in the Avatar Trilogy - Ao will not punish a deity for doing their job, regardless of the effects it has.

So, in the examples given, Torm would be incapable of lying. He cannot even conceive of telling a lie, it's just not there for him. A blind-spot, if you will. This is not to say that he cannot conceive of others telling lies. He fully expects some to do so, like Cyric.

Cyric cannot behave honorably, unless it is to some dastardly end. A truly altruistic motive is just as beyond him as a lie is to Torm.

Tyr cannot be unjust. He can only see others being unjust, to which he must respond by bringing justice, just as you or I feel the need to draw a breath once the last one was expelled. It's cause and effect.

Tempus cannot promote peace. If peace is a result of battle, it means nothing to him. He sees the battle, and when it ends he goes on to the next battle. Repurcussions of the battles mean nothing to him, unless it leads to more battle."





"Each portfolio is most likely slowly but surely altering the individual that owns it. How quickly this happens depends upon the will power of the individual, but I would imagine that a paladin who gained the portfolio of murder would slowly, but surely decay into becoming a black guard. "





 "I think it depends on how long the god has been a god, and if they were ever mortal in the first place. I think the longer they have their portfolio, the more it is "part" of them. Dispite this, I think the actions of other gods and even the influence of powerful situations or relics might be able to snap them out of their thinking long enough for them to do some things that are "out of character." Heck, several of them did things that were out of character during the Time of Troubles."





"I'd say they can, but it would be exceedingly unlikely. It may go against Torm's nature to tell a lie, for example, but that doesn't mean he's incapable of doing so. Of course, it might be damaging to his portfolio to do so..."





"We saw it in the avatar trilogy where Midnight where given the form of Mystra and the following portfolios and in the following books centered on Cyric. The trial against cyric also dealed with the question of whether Midnight/Mystra and Kelemvor acted against their divine duties. They confessed to that and showed that a god has the ability to do so... But as well as all of us are capable of murder and other horrible crimes it is as far from the nature of most of us as anything can be... I think that it is even more unlikely that a gods would act against their divine obligations. But they are capable of doing so...

I also think, as mentioned above that it becomes more dificult for a god to do so the longer they hold their place in the pantheon... They duties becomes a bigger part of them the longer they are deities. They rise to the occation..."




      As you can see, only recently ascended deities can act against his tenets and not for long. And assuming godhood is not a 10-years job, is for eternity. Much longer you are a god, the more you merge with your ideology. The difference can be seen in a comparison Mystra-Torm. Both are formal mortals, but Mystra is a goddess only for 10 years while Torm has already more than 1500 years. The result is that Torm is dominated completely by his portofolio, Mystra tries to retain something of her former mortal conscience. And she fails in the end.



        And, in regard to Edorem's fate :
"if he shows mercy to the paladin, who is suppose to be upholding justice, how much mercy is he showing the innocent. I don't even think this is stiff neck, but just being lawful good. Punishment doesn't mean death or dismemberment either, but the paladin should definately loose his powers. "

"I think Tyr would strip the paladin of his special abilities until he had atoned for his actions"




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At anyrate taking bhaals divine essense doesn't mean he takes his portfolio. Infact the PC can created a hole new portfolio.

" Through friends and enemies, you have conquered your heritage, turning shadow to light, and now the infernal power of Bhaal no longer holds sway"

I guess you could call it redemption. For the PC is one who could fight againts his evil heritage. He could have a chuch dedicaded on the dogma to fight for good reguardless of your past or heritage.

The good PC could simply let Cyric keep the portfolio of death and find his own nitch among the powers.


      Gods can't create their own portofolios. It would result into chaos. All the ascended mortals (Bhaal, Bane, Myrkul, Mystra, Midnight, Cyric, Kelemvor, Azuth) took already existant portofolios. Charname could avoid taking death only if a good power agrees to sponsor him and relinquish to him a part of his domains. Unfortunately, Charname does not have such sponsorship. I think only Ao could create new portofolios, but I'm not very sure of this.
Real sucks, Barca rules !

I like Real only when it plays in Segunda Division !

It is said that Mount Celestia is a place of perfection. None else than Saerileth could have been the symbol of its splendor.

Offline nethrin

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Whatever happened to Edorem, he who loved Saerileth?
« Reply #39 on: August 26, 2005, 05:56:20 AM »
who's reading this debate besides the two guys engaging in it?
               

Offline Undertaker

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Whatever happened to Edorem, he who loved Saerileth?
« Reply #40 on: August 26, 2005, 06:00:27 AM »
Quote from: "nethrin"
who's reading this debate besides the two guys engaging in it?



I do :P
Evil hidden everywhere
Evil has a chilling stare
Null and void of any care
Is where the answer lies
It does no good to beg or cry
It does no good to question why
It does no good it never dies
Evil never dies

Offline Feanor

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Whatever happened to Edorem, he who loved Saerileth?
« Reply #41 on: August 26, 2005, 06:07:50 AM »
But, in regard to what you said, that death is not only evil, there is a problem. A portofolio like death is both positive and negative. There is death is deliverance from suffering, death as punishment, death as a part of a natural cycle, but also violent death, death as murder, ritual death, death as a slaughter. The problem is : Charname would be the only god of death in the Realms so he has to promote both aspects. And it is far more easy to emphasize the negative aspect of such a domain. Suffering can be also viewed as a bad portofolio. But Ilmater is the god of suffering and he is not evil because there already is Loviatar, who takes care of the negative side of suffering.
      But let's suppose Charname becomes a good god. Torm is considered one of the most lawful and good gods of the Realms. How he behaved in an interesting situation (this is to enlight MightySword why I said gods are dominated by their portofolios). Gwydion, a worshipper of Torm, is tricked by Cyric into a suicidal attack against a giant. He dies for Torm and goes to the Realm of the Deads, where Cyric wants to place him among the false. Torm steps in and he offers to take Gwydion into his realm, on Mount Celestia. Cyric asks him to prove that he could shelter Gwydion. At that moment, Torm demands from Gwydion to read the words inscribed on his gauntlets (the words for duty and loyalty in every language, which every follower of Torm must be able to read for gaining access into Torm's paradise). Since Gwydion did not live according to Torm's tenets, he was not capable to read the words and Torm could not take him into his realm, abandoning him into Cyric's grasp. That despite of the fact Torm is lawful good and Gwydion died in Torm's name.
Real sucks, Barca rules !

I like Real only when it plays in Segunda Division !

It is said that Mount Celestia is a place of perfection. None else than Saerileth could have been the symbol of its splendor.

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Whatever happened to Edorem, he who loved Saerileth?
« Reply #42 on: August 26, 2005, 06:10:59 AM »
Quote from: "nethrin"
who's reading this debate besides the two guys engaging in it?

I'm reading it too, learning a bit more about the human mind. :D
*nothing to see here. move along, move along*

Offline Lord Kain

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Whatever happened to Edorem, he who loved Saerileth?
« Reply #43 on: August 26, 2005, 06:21:16 AM »
Quote from: "Feanor"
[
      Gods can't create their own portofolios. It would result into chaos. All the ascended mortals (Bhaal, Bane, Myrkul, Mystra, Midnight, Cyric, Kelemvor, Azuth) took already existant portofolios. Charname could avoid taking death only if a good power agrees to sponsor him and relinquish to him a part of his domains. Unfortunately, Charname does not have such sponsorship. I think only Ao could create new portofolios, but I'm not very sure of this.


He has The Solar at his side. An as i've come to understand it that Solar is of great cosmic importance.
The portfolios are nitchs the gods carve out for themselves. Its there tool for worshipers, power
Ao wanted the hole bhaalspawn saga to play out with out the gods geting involved. I'd like to think the scope was beyond weakening Cyric.

If the PC finds a nitch that hasn't been occupied I don't see why Ao would stop the PC.
Bhaal's essense is taken care of, and this new deity doesn't infringe directly upon any of the older deities portfolios. The balance among the powers isn't upset.
"Who--who are you?"
"Who? Who is but the form following the function of what... and what I am is a man in a mask."
"I can see that"
"Of course you can. I'm not questioning your powers of observation, I'm merely remarking on the paradox of asking a masked man who he is."

Offline Feanor

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Whatever happened to Edorem, he who loved Saerileth?
« Reply #44 on: August 26, 2005, 06:46:38 AM »
Quote from: "Lord Kain"


He has The Solar at his side. An as i've come to understand it that Solar is of great cosmic importance.
The portfolios are nitchs the gods carve out for themselves. Its there tool for worshipers, power
Ao wanted the hole bhaalspawn saga to play out with out the gods geting involved. I'd like to think the scope was beyond weakening Cyric.

If the PC finds a nitch that hasn't been occupied I don't see why Ao would stop the PC.
Bhaal's essense is taken care of, and this new deity doesn't infringe directly upon any of the older deities portfolios. The balance among the powers isn't upset.


       I asked this question at candlekeep as well. Answers received :


"A mortal rising to godhood, yes, this happened before with examples such as Midnight, Cyric and Kelemvor and Finder. But it is unheard of that they can create their own portfolios, for I doubt Ao would allow that to happen. So far, mortals that rise to godhood normally assume the portfolios held by their predecessors anyway such as example, Midnight assuming Mystra portfolio of magic and Cyric assuming the portfolio of the dead Lord of Murder.


"If was allowed to mortals create their own portfolios when they ascend to divinity, so Ao will have to permit that the formal gods create his own portfolios, too, and it will became a whole mess. And the god, generally, is the embodiment of his porftolio, so I think dificult to one god "create" a new portfolio to himself..."

"As former mortals, Mystra, Kelemvor, and Cyric probably retain some of their free-will. But as time passes they would begin to lose this."


"True, but maybe accelerated for Mystra(Midnight) if she manages to defeat Shar and assume control of the Shadow Weave, she may lose whatever last vestiges of her own "mortal" parts instantly."


      So, the option of the PC creating his own portofolio is excluded from the start. Also, the PC to find a niche that has not been occupied is very unlikely. Because a domain attracts worshippers and that means more power. The gods are in a continuous pursuit for more power. If a domain is free for the taking, a lot of gods would seize the opportunity at that moment and try to take it. Heck, they even try to steal their own portofolios from each other, so a domain would have a lot of claimers in the very moment it becomes free. If the PC takes a good portofolio, then it means it will take some of the power and worshippers of the god which first owned that domain. Which would piss him off a lot. Also, gods can't take a domain which they don't have a claim on : by claim, I mean they either killed or defeated the previous owner, other they were granted that domain freely by the owner or are somehow related to that god. Xvim got tyranny as son of Bane, Kelemvor defeated Cyric in battle, Cyric killed Bhaal and Myrkul and so on. The PC can't simply go to Torm and say : "Hey, give loyalty to me."
Real sucks, Barca rules !

I like Real only when it plays in Segunda Division !

It is said that Mount Celestia is a place of perfection. None else than Saerileth could have been the symbol of its splendor.