Author Topic: Whatever happened to Edorem, he who loved Saerileth?  (Read 19490 times)

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Offline Feanor

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Whatever happened to Edorem, he who loved Saerileth?
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2005, 08:27:52 AM »
Quote from: "Veldrin"
Quote from: "Feanor"
Quote from: "Veldrin"
Maybe it's because loosing Saerileth to <CHARNAME> taught him a badly needed lesson in humility...



     How true !  :D  On the other hand, he still has a major fault : he did not free himself of his former misconceptions. In the mod, he treated Charname badly also because he was a Bhaalspawn and his wretched heritage. Now, because Arlluvia had the perfect profile of "the innocent and beautiful maid in distress", he failed to see the lie which she was. The fact that he does not see beyond appearances cost him his very life.


True, he was a prejudiced twerp to the end. But that arrogance is so deeply rooted into Eodrem's personality that he wouldn't really be himself without it. I think learning that he wasn't the bright and shining center of the universe was about as much as Eodrem could handle in one go. Man...I'm being really mean to the deceased fictional chap.


     Arrogance is not quite the proper term to describe him, in my opinion. "Easy to mislead" is better. He still could not understand that not everything that shines is gold and not everything that has roots in darkness is without value.
Real sucks, Barca rules !

I like Real only when it plays in Segunda Division !

It is said that Mount Celestia is a place of perfection. None else than Saerileth could have been the symbol of its splendor.

Offline Mightysword

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Whatever happened to Edorem, he who loved Saerileth?
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2005, 11:17:38 PM »
But this ending ... it really makes people doubt doesn't it (at least in my case). And right now my target is not Edorem, he seems ... insignificant, but the target is tear.


The question is how can something like this happens to a Chosen of Tyr? In his action, most of the time Edorem is not exactly a bad guy, and his action can be justify, he's just at the losing side of the matter.


As a chosen you would think Tyr should have some guidance and protection for him. This situtation really make one wonder if Tyr decided to forshaken his Chosen (like the kind of thing that Morag did to Aribeth in NWN), he forgot and forfeited his chosen to a cruel fate, a fate that I don't think Edorem deserves.

Offline Dead_Ghost

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Whatever happened to Edorem, he who loved Saerileth?
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2005, 03:39:40 AM »
Quote from: "Mightysword"
As a chosen you would think Tyr should have some guidance and protection for him. This situtation really make one wonder if Tyr decided to forshaken his Chosen (like the kind of thing that Morag did to Aribeth in NWN), he forgot and forfeited his chosen to a cruel fate, a fate that I don't think Edorem deserves.

Personally, I consider this as a test Tyr sent him for. A test to which Edorem failed. And, considering Feanor's statements and the Code of Paladins he showed in another thread, we can consider Edorem had failed Tyr already, during BG2 SoA and ToB :D .
Like I've said, I considered this as Edorem's final chance to redeem himself.
*nothing to see here. move along, move along*

Offline Feanor

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Whatever happened to Edorem, he who loved Saerileth?
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2005, 06:17:57 AM »
Quote from: "Mightysword"
But this ending ... it really makes people doubt doesn't it (at least in my case). And right now my target is not Edorem, he seems ... insignificant, but the target is tear.


The question is how can something like this happens to a Chosen of Tyr? In his action, most of the time Edorem is not exactly a bad guy, and his action can be justify, he's just at the losing side of the matter.


As a chosen you would think Tyr should have some guidance and protection for him. This situtation really make one wonder if Tyr decided to forshaken his Chosen (like the kind of thing that Morag did to Aribeth in NWN), he forgot and forfeited his chosen to a cruel fate, a fate that I don't think Edorem deserves.



       I think I can try an answer.

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Personally, I consider this as a test Tyr sent him for. A test to which Edorem failed.


     I do not concur. Maybe that was the whole idea : Edorem redeemed himself through death. Because his behaviour in SoA was not according to Tyr's doghma. That is bad. Very bad. Because, when someone worships a god but he fails in following his gods tenets, he will be placed among the False and Tyr can't even take him into his paradise (False depend strictly on the Lord of the Deads whim - at that moment, Kelemvor) To turn him into a proxy (as Saerileth expects from him - she says that in the mod) can't even be taken into consideration.
     Remember what happened with Aribeth in NWN. Despite all her previous exploits, she could not be forgiven for her treachery. We do not know if she was killed by the PC or executed by Lord Nasher afterwards, but in HotU we found her in Hells. And only after she endures the rightful punishment in Hell for her transgression and she is purified this way, can Tyr accept her again.
     As god of justice, Tyr considers there must be a punishment for Edorem's failure. If he dies for his duty, but because of love, then Tyr could view this as the proper punishment (the idea : love made you fail first time and through love you have been punished) and so his previous mistakes could be overlooked and his errors won't weight upon him in the afterlife.
     And, as a side comment (no offence to Saerileth) : Tyr is quite a narrow-minded god. If he thinks something is appropriate for justice, then he will do it.


      But there is an interesting paradox here. Sillara says she likes Edorem. But the fate she had imagined for him is worse than anything his enemies had desired. When people wanted to kill Edorem, they suggested ctrl+y : fast, without pain, Edorem would have been obliterated before even knowing what hit him. But, in the story, not only that Edorem was killed, but he also had his heart crushed a second time. Why did you do it, Sillara ?   :cry:
Real sucks, Barca rules !

I like Real only when it plays in Segunda Division !

It is said that Mount Celestia is a place of perfection. None else than Saerileth could have been the symbol of its splendor.

Offline Mightysword

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Whatever happened to Edorem, he who loved Saerileth?
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2005, 02:42:22 PM »
Whatever the case, I can never agree with Tyr, and I don't care either, a god is not supposed to be "narrow-minded", Gods have so many matter at their mercy, narrow-minded is a poor excuse for a god, to be plain, a narrow-minded entity does NOT deserve to be a God.


As I said, Edorem's actions while is not good, but they're not injustice. In real life you put a person in prison when he commits a crime, you don't punish someone for just not being a good citizen. If Tyr is a god of justice, then Edorem's death is UN-JUSTICE, if this is really a Tyr's judgment, then Tyr does not deserve to be called the god of justice. Also, if he does not have mercy and sympathy on his servant, Tyr does not event deserve to be a leader  let alone a god. A general's job is not only about passing out order, but also to see the well being of his soldier, being a general does not give you the right to put people live at your whimp, even if they're under your command. Edorem is a chosen, he did not come to Tyr, Tyr CHOSE HIM. And for that, Tyr also has a certain responsibility to him, but Tyr chose to forshaken him.



Relating to the case of Aribeth, one can say Tyr appear not only a narrow-minded but also a self-serving judge. He forfeited Aribeth just as he forfeited Edorem. Sure, we know it's Morag who produces those fake dream to make Aribeth think Tyr turns his back on her, but the question is, then WHERE IS THE REAL TYR? Where is him when his servant needs him the most, does it mean that when you serve Tyr you only have to serve him, and he won't care a **** about you? In Aribeth fallen, in my eyes here are the people must took responsibility, in an order of the most responsibility to the least responsibility:


+ Tyr. Aribeth is his servant, she is HIS responsibility.
+ The people of Neverwinter.
+ Lord Nasher and Arrand Gend, also the PC.
+ Aribeth.

Yes, Aribeth, to me, just has to take the "LEAST" responsibility in her own fallen. Adding up these story together, if you ask me, Tyr is not worth Worshiping.


HOTU is just one way to explain her ending, and I think it sucks, that expack is built more like a Hack&Slash to add more stuff to the tool set rather then the normal RPG Bioware is doing. I recommend the Aribeth's Rivival mod, it makes more sense. Everyone took responsible for her fallen, because it's everyone's fault. Nasher said he won't give into the mob, Arrand Gend take a huge responsibility because after all, he's the Spy Master, he's supposed to see all of this coming. It makes more sense and the conclusion is much more justifiable then HOTU. It's a short mode, but very well done.



Aribeth and Edorem are paladin "under Tyr's guidance", their fallen are also Tyr's fallen. Like in real life, if your soldiers fail to do your assigment, as their supperior you also have to take a part of the responsibility, I don't say the soldiers is not a fault, but it's a fault that you're supposed to share. A good commander will never blame everything on his soldiers to save his own ass and to maintain his "perfection". So Tyr just want people to serves him, and when they fail he throws them out and punish them, and take no responsibility? Heck, what kind of god is that!

Offline Dead_Ghost

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Whatever happened to Edorem, he who loved Saerileth?
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2005, 03:36:16 PM »
Quote from: "Mightysword"
Heck, what kind of god is that!

Ever heard the say Through pain comes cleansing. :D
And let the pain of Hells show them their errors, in order for them to regret and recognize their mistakes. (yes, I've put the regret first and recognition afterwards purposefully :D )
 :lol:
Just kidding.
Maybe Tyr believes he's doing the best for his Chosen that way? Give him the benefit of doubt.
...
If, for nothing else, for you to feel yourself as better than a God. :D (no pun intended)
*nothing to see here. move along, move along*

Offline Feanor

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Whatever happened to Edorem, he who loved Saerileth?
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2005, 01:46:39 AM »
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Whatever the case, I can never agree with Tyr, and I don't care either, a god is not supposed to be "narrow-minded", Gods have so many matter at their mercy, narrow-minded is a poor excuse for a god, to be plain, a narrow-minded entity does NOT deserve to be a God.


     You missed the point. If you agree with Tyr or not is totally irellevant, I explained you why did he let this happen to Edorem. If you have a better approach, ascend. Godhood awaits you.  :D
     Also you say a god is not supposed to be a narrow-minded. Again, you put the problem wrong. How are they supposed to be is irrelevant. I also can think of many improvements for them. But they are this way. All of them. By "narrow-minded" I meant that they view the world strictly according to their portofolio. That is why Tyr will always promote justice in the Realms, while Talos will always promote destruction. The gods of AD&D are not the all-mighty deities from monotheistic religions. Think of them as the gods from the greek mithology. They were powerful beings, but not by far without faults.
     Torm was twice in such a situation : first, Gwydion (who later will become one of his chosens) was abandoned to Cyric, because, although he pretended to be a follower of Torm, he did not live according to Torm's tenets. Another (whose name I don't remember at that moment), although he died for duty, was relinquished by Torm to Kelemvor because he did not worship him. Torm was sorry, but the rule was rule. And since Tyr is Torm's superior and even more harsh than Torm when it comes to duty and justice, something like this was to be expected.


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As I said, Edorem's actions while is not good, but they're not injustice. In real life you put a person in prison when he commits a crime, you don't punish someone for just not being a good citizen. If Tyr is a god of justice, then Edorem's death is UN-JUSTICE, if this is really a Tyr's judgment, then Tyr does not deserve to be called the god of justice.


       First, I want to remind you that there is much difference between today's justice and medieval justice. In Middle Ages, you could have been hanged for reasons which today would seem ridiculous.
       Second, offence to a member of the church or an ally of it (such as Charname) is punishable by prison or death, according to the gravity of the offence. You like it or not, that is the situation. In ancient Rome, for instance, any offence towards the maidens of Vesta was punishable by death.

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Also, if he does not have mercy and sympathy on his servant, Tyr does not event deserve to be a leader  let alone a god. A general's job is not only about passing out order, but also to see the well being of his soldier, being a general does not give you the right to put people live at your whimp, even if they're under your command. Edorem is a chosen, he did not come to Tyr, Tyr CHOSE HIM. And for that, Tyr also has a certain responsibility to him, but Tyr chose to forshaken him.


       Tyr chose him, but Edorem failed him first. Why do you always forget this ? Yes, he has a responsibility towards his chosen, but he has a responsibility for his other paladins as well. If all will go on like nothing happened, then what the other paladins could understand from this ? That you can be lax in your duties and get away with it ? Tyr chose him, but as a Chosen you must put the interest of your god above anything else.


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Relating to the case of Aribeth, one can say Tyr appear not only a narrow-minded but also a self-serving judge. He forfeited Aribeth just as he forfeited Edorem. Sure, we know it's Morag who produces those fake dream to make Aribeth think Tyr turns his back on her, but the question is, then WHERE IS THE REAL TYR? Where is him when his servant needs him the most, does it mean that when you serve Tyr you only have to serve him, and he won't care a **** about you? In Aribeth fallen, in my eyes here are the people must took responsibility, in an order of the most responsibility to the least responsibility:


      I have to make an observation : it's not only about serving a god. In AD&D, the god represent ideologies. One who serves Tyr, serves also justice.


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Yes, Aribeth, to me, just has to take the "LEAST" responsibility in her own fallen. Adding up these story together, if you ask me, Tyr is not worth Worshiping.


HOTU is just one way to explain her ending, and I think it sucks, that expack is built more like a Hack&Slash to add more stuff to the tool set rather then the normal RPG Bioware is doing. I recommend the Aribeth's Rivival mod, it makes more sense. Everyone took responsible for her fallen, because it's everyone's fault. Nasher said he won't give into the mob, Arrand Gend take a huge responsibility because after all, he's the Spy Master, he's supposed to see all of this coming. It makes more sense and the conclusion is much more justifiable then HOTU. It's a short mode, but very well done.


      That does not change the facts that Aribeth betrayed her city and caused a lot of death. Following your reason, it means that, if someone puts a bomb in Empire State Building because his lover was executed by US justice, then the main responsibility is shared by the president (because he did not cancel the execution) US justice (for condemning him)and CIA (because it should have foreseen this).

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Aribeth and Edorem are paladin "under Tyr's guidance", their fallen are also Tyr's fallen. Like in real life, if your soldiers fail to do your assigment, as their supperior you also have to take a part of the responsibility, I don't say the soldiers is not a fault, but it's a fault that you're supposed to share. A good commander will never blame everything on his soldiers to save his own ass and to maintain his "perfection".


       In Edorem's case, at least, I don't see how Tyr could be blamed for his failure. And if a sentry is caught sleeping, the one who goes to the Martial Court is the soldier, not the commander.

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So Tyr just want people to serves him, and when they fail he throws them out and punish them, and take no responsibility? Heck, what kind of god is that!


     No. Tyr asks his servants to behave according to his tenets. For this, he will take them into his paradise and the most devoted of them could even be turned into celestials. But, if they don't, Tyr has no obligations towards them anymore. If Tyr does not mete out punishment to his servant for his transgression, the result can be chaos. Cyric can't wait to accuse him of threatening the balance. Also, since Tyr is the judge of the Gods, he must be very careful that he could not be accused of subjectivity. He may have a responsibility towards his faithfuls, but how would it sound when Cyric or Talos would suggest that Tyr ignores justice when it comes to his own servants ? They could even ask for Tyr to be judged by the Council of Greater Powers, and if the council concludes he ignores his duties and threatens balance, the result could be annihilation.

 
     BTW, here is Tyr's doghma :

Tyr appears as a noble warrior missing his right hand, lost to Kezef the Chaos Hound in proving his resilience and strength of spirit. Tyr's symbol shows his nature: justice through benevolent force and armed vigilance. He opposes all beings who deal in trickery, rule-breaking, and unjust destruction and misdeeds.

To denote his favor or the occurrence of important deeds or  decisions, Tyr frequently manifests as the echoing stroke of a gong, accompanied by an exultant wordless cord sung by unseen male voices. Tyr sometimes acts through extremely obedient, intelligent, large, and well-groomed war dogs that appear out of nowhere.

Tyrrans are sworn to uphold the law wherever they go, and to punish those wronged under the law. They are to keep complete records of their own rulings, deeds, and decisions. Through these records, a priest's errors can be corrected, his or her grasp of the laws of all lands can grow and flourish, and lawbreakers can be identified by others.

Reveal the truth, punish the guilty, right the wrong, and be always true and just in your actions. Tyrrans should always be vigilant in their observations and anticipations, seeking to see what forces and which beings intend or will cause injustices that threaten law and order in the future. They should act to prevent such challenges to justice in comming to pass. In short: Abide by the laws, and let no others break them. Mete out punishment where lawbreaking occours.


       

         BTW, I want to specify that I consider Edorem's ending extremely harsh and even cruel, but on the other hand I can understand why Tyr accepted that.
Real sucks, Barca rules !

I like Real only when it plays in Segunda Division !

It is said that Mount Celestia is a place of perfection. None else than Saerileth could have been the symbol of its splendor.

Offline Mightysword

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Whatever happened to Edorem, he who loved Saerileth?
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2005, 08:55:02 AM »
Irrelevant? That's why I said I don't care. A god is supposed to be benevolence and merciful. I already told you in the past that as a Judge, one must not only make sure the sentence is just, but also fair. Mercy and Rightiouse are 2 sides that the law MUST have. Searileth also shows the same opinion after the Kesava quest, about how can we human live if a god has no mercy, and justice without mercy can be even UNJUST.



You said about the Medival and today, while D&D is not exactly Medival, I can say that the excuse is wrong. Back in the days the Churchs has absolute power to manipulate things in Europe, they had the power, or at America during the Crucible hundreds of people were excuted because accusing witchcraft. Nowaday we don't see those anymore, does it mean the God himself change? NO. It's the people who abuse his status for their own right, a god in the 18 century is the god of the 21 century, he doesn't become more benevolent or less cruel, it's just the way people changed. God does not change, if Tyr sucks, then he always sucks regardless of the time.



Aribeth's fall caused many death, and as I said I never said it's not her fault, however, it's a fault that others are supposed to SHARE, Tyr included. She devoted to him, and where is him when she needs him the most? Aren Gend - Spy Master - how can he not see the Desther was a fake? As I said, I recommend you to try the Aribeth Revival I mod on nwnvault, it gives a more acceptable on Aribeth's case.



And you missed the point that they are under Tyr's guidance, when a student fails, it means 2 things, the student didn't study well and the teacher did a bad job. The responsibility is there to share. Tyr's business with other god and Cycric is "his" business, his servants are not responsible for that, as their master it's his responsibility to protect them. There is no justice in Edorem's death, not event a smallest potion, Tyr is blind more then just his eyes. And there is no justice if Aribeth dies, only vengeance, and justice is different then vengeance.



This piece maybe a good craft of writing, however I think it fails to illustrate the concept of a God, it favors too much on the dramatic sense while sacrify too much in the sense of logic. It is good writing but its meaning fails. If it's not that, then the only other explaination is Tyr does not deserve to be a god. And no, you can do away with the joke of "decending to godhood and such" because I'm judging a god. Remember, a good art critic is not neccessary an artist, a good football speaker does not neccessary a football player.

Offline Feanor

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Whatever happened to Edorem, he who loved Saerileth?
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2005, 09:50:31 AM »
And I say again : the gods of Forgotten Realms have flaws. Exactly like the greek gods. Personally, I was surprised at the fact that such gods could inspire so devotion as we see in Saerileth. The greeks worshipped the gods because they feared them or wanted some benefits from them, but none would have placed them above their family. Simply because there are other options as well. That's why Saerileth's statement "I would choose my god because he was my first love" is quite unbelievable. If there is a problem with Tyr, she could simply turn to Lathander, Helm, Mystra, Oghma or Chauntea, but she has only one Charname.

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Irrelevant? That's why I said I don't care. I already told you in the past that as a Judge, one must not only make sure the sentence is just, but also fair. Mercy and Rightiouse are 2 sides that the law MUST have.


      I said "irrelevant", because, we like it or not, Tyr is this way. And many things are not fair. If Toril is fair, why the Zhentarim still exists ? Why the drow are not obliterated by the Seldarine ? Why Mystra allows even evil mages to access the weave ? There are many "why" which could be asked and, by comparison, Edorem's fate is quite insignificant. And, in the end, he brought this upon himself. Tyr after all gave him the strength to smite his opponents (turn undead) but if Edorem was so dumb to let himself tricked by a pretty face is his fault.

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A god is supposed to be benevolence and merciful.


     Well, they aren't. Even crazy maniacs like Bane, Cyric, Lloth are gods.

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And you missed the point that they are under Tyr's guidance, when a student fails, it means 2 things, the student didn't study well and the teacher did a bad job. The responsibility is there to share. , as their master it's his responsibility to protect them. There is no justice in Edorem's death, not event a smallest potion, Tyr is blind more then just his eyes. And there is no justice if Aribeth dies, only vengeance, and justice is different then vengeance.


     But, on the other hand, Tyr is not a baby-sitter. If Tyr would guide their every step, then where would lie their worth ? If by "guidance", you mean that Tyr should take them by their hand and direct every step of them, then I do not concur. Tyr grants them power, but is up to them what they do with them. If Tyr always tells them what to do, than where lies their own valor ? Why would they deserve to be taken by Tyr on Mount Celestia after death ?

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Tyr's business with other god and Cycric is "his" business, his servants are not responsible for that


      No, it is. Because Tyr must apply the law to all : from Cyric to the last peasant from Faerun. He can't have preferences. If Tyr forgives Edorem, Cyric could tell him :
Cyric : "Is it forbidden for your servants to mistreat your mortal allies ?"
Tyr : "Yes".
Cyric : "Has Edorem done such a thing ?"
Tyr : "Yes."
Cyric : "Were there any consequences ?"
Tyr : "No."
Cyric : "And now you want to judge me, you whose own servants don't uphold your laws ? Fuck you !"
If there were no consequences for Edorem's actions, then the result would be dire : it means that every other paladins could do what Edorem did without any retribution.

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There is no justice in Edorem's death, not event a smallest potion, Tyr is blind more then just his eyes.


     Tyr is the blind god. But, really, if he wants mercy, Edorem should damn Tyr and go to Ilmater instead. As God of Suffering, Ilmater would surely understand him.

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And there is no justice if Aribeth dies, only vengeance, and justice is different then vengeance.


       I'm stunned. So, in your opinion, it's ok if person x gathers an army and nearly destroys an entire city because something bad happened to his lover ? So, what you say is Aribeth could tell the judge "please, it was not my fault, Tyr, Nasher, Aarin and people of Neverwinter are to blame ; I know I killed some thousands people and brought war on the Sword Coast, but it was not my fault, really."

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There is no justice in Edorem's death, not event a smallest potion, Tyr is blind more then just his eyes


     I'll give you an example. In 339 BC, the roman consul Titus Manlius Torquatus has commanded his troops not to engage the enemy. There was one soldier who disobeyed : he answered the taunts of an enemy and killed him in single-handed combat. Torquatus ordered the soldier's execution : he was cruel, but the military discipline had been broken. And another detail : the soldier was Torquatus' son. It was fair ? No. It was merciful ? No. But was the military law broken ? Yes. The young man was executed on the spot.

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This piece maybe a good craft of writing, however I think it fails to illustrate the concept of a God, it favors too much on the dramatic sense while sacrify too much in the sense of logic. It is good writing but its meaning fails. If it's not that, then the only other explaination is Tyr does not deserve to be a god. And no, you can do away with the joke of "decending to godhood and such" because I'm judging a god. Remember, a good art critic is not neccessary an artist, a good football speaker does not neccessary a football player.


       You seem to forget who are the gods in Faerun : Cyric the Prince of Lies, Talos the Destroyer, Bane the Tyrant, Lloth the Spider Queen, Beshaba the Maid of Misfortune, Umberlee the Bitch Queen and so on. Really, if you expect the gods of Forgotten Realms to be a kind of Jesus Christ, you are wrong. They are not this way.
Real sucks, Barca rules !

I like Real only when it plays in Segunda Division !

It is said that Mount Celestia is a place of perfection. None else than Saerileth could have been the symbol of its splendor.

Offline Mightysword

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Whatever happened to Edorem, he who loved Saerileth?
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2005, 10:33:58 AM »
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      I'm stunned. So, in your opinion, it's ok if person x gathers an army and nearly destroys an entire city because something bad happened to his lover ? So, what you say is Aribeth could tell the judge "please, it was not my fault, Tyr, Nasher, Aarin and people of Neverwinter are to blame ; I know I killed some thousands people and brought war on the Sword Coast, but it was not my fault, really."



You should not be. Aribeth's path is just vengeance upon vengeance. Remember Fenthick was not a bad person, he's misguided. He believed in Desther because he thinks Desther is up for a better good. But in him, the people of Neverwinter see the mean of their vengeance, then in them, Aribeth sees the mean of their vengeance, so now the people will take vengeance upon her again? Tell be, in that painful circle, can you see who is really at fault and there is someone really is innocent? And did I ever said Aribeth is totally innocent of all charge? I did not didn't I? And I think it's a little bit sarcastic when you use the term babysitting, a commander must see to the good being and safety of his soldier, but that's responsibility of a leader, not babysitting.


And again (you keep missing this), the point is not to BLAME, but to SHARE the responsibility, it's wrong for people to blame EVERYTHING on Aribeth, neither she can BLAME everything on others. It's S-H-A-R-E. With sharing it will come understanding, from understanding it will come sympathy, from sympathy peace may come. While blaming will only continues the circle of vengeance, Neverwinter blamed Fenthick for their suffer to make Aribeth suffer, Aribeth blame Neverwinter for her suffer just to cause more suffer, so at the end, tell me, who is the one that can be benifit from that circle? And in that circle, point me out an element of justice, or there are only selfishness and vengeance?


Again, you can try the Aribeth Rivival mod, it exlpained the situation better then me. And yes, in that mod Aribeth did  have to stand a trail by the lords, the soldier and the people of NWN. YOu can see what I mean. Not only that, she has to learn to forgive herself.




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      You seem to forget who are the gods in Faerun : Cyric the Prince of Lies, Talos the Destroyer, Bane the Tyrant, Lloth the Spider Queen, Beshaba the Maid of Misfortune, Umberlee the Bitch Queen and so on. Really, if you expect the gods of Forgotten Realms to be a kind of Jesus Christ, you are wrong. They are not this way.



No, that's just one way to give another excuse, I can remind you that beside Jesus, we also have Satan. There are always good and bad god. And we are talking about Tyr, one that is supposed to be a good god, so counter by the symbol of the bad god won't make sense.



To some decree, I prefer the Greek god Mythology. There are sense and logic among them. The Myth Gods act and think like a normal person, they just simply have power. They act on their own accord, to their own personality, in their action, there is wrong and there is right. They do it, they know it wrong, but they still do it, but they give no excuse to say they're right, it's just something they want to do, the Greek Gods have passion, and they admit they can be right or wrong. While in most religous, including the D&D universe, Gods is viewed as supreme entities, as perfection, to them, they can not never be wrong no matter how wrong it actually is, there will be always excuses for their action, they can never be wrong. HA! It's because of that very reason I call Tyr is just a selfserving jerk. To judge another one must know how to judge oneself first.

Offline Lord Kain

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Whatever happened to Edorem, he who loved Saerileth?
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2005, 01:18:20 PM »
Edorem is guilty of being a jerk to the PC, thats it. HE IS HUMAN after all. Really other then being a jerk what did he do wrong?
"Who--who are you?"
"Who? Who is but the form following the function of what... and what I am is a man in a mask."
"I can see that"
"Of course you can. I'm not questioning your powers of observation, I'm merely remarking on the paradox of asking a masked man who he is."

Offline Feanor

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Whatever happened to Edorem, he who loved Saerileth?
« Reply #26 on: August 23, 2005, 07:54:41 AM »
First, I have the impression we are speaking past each other. We started from the question "Why did tyr desert his chosen". And there are more possible explanations :
1. I agree with you that his fate was cruel and undeserved. But I prefer to look for another explanation for tyr's attitude than calling him a selfserving jerk. I consider that tyr felt there was need for a punishment in Edorem's case. In AD&D, tyr plays the role of the harsh and unforgiving judge. His ideas about justice don't imply fairness as well. His main principle is "the guilty must be punished". So, if tyr considered Edorem guilty of acting against the paladinic discipline, it can be easily explained why did he abandoned Edorem. He was sorry for him, but if he considered it was his duty to justice to punish Edorem, then I can easily imagine why he did it. And, as a side note, tyr is quite stiff-necked in such matters and he sees things in black and white. For instance, what if Tyr considered that forgiving Edorem completely would imply that he approves his deeds ?
      On the other hand, I want to add something : the gods of Forgotten Realms have power. They don't have freedom. Read that carefully, Mightysword. Examples : Oghma was forced to give Cyric access to his libraries to look for some old sorceries. He held no sympathy for Cyric and he would have prefer yric never to find what he looked for, but he had no choice, because knowledge must remain neutral. That is his nature.
      So, if Kesevar and Edorem are judged by tyr, what can they say in their defense ? Kesevar : "It is true that I spilled blood in the halls of judgement, but I had to protect an innocent life. There was no choice." Edorem : "It is true that I acted against the discipline of the paladins, but I was driven by jealousy". Which of the excuses holds credit ? While Tyr could give *sympathy* to Edorem, I don't think he would forgive him. It is against his nature.

2. Tyr is a self-serving jerk who does not deserve to be a god. (Still, in such a case, there are others who should be drive out of the pantheon first)

      You choose what explanation you prefer.

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You should not be. Aribeth's path is just vengeance upon vengeance. Remember Fenthick was not a bad person, he's misguided. He believed in Desther because he thinks Desther is up for a better good. But in him, the people of Neverwinter see the mean of their vengeance, then in them, Aribeth sees the mean of their vengeance, so now the people will take vengeance upon her again? Tell be, in that painful circle, can you see who is really at fault and there is someone really is innocent? And did I ever said Aribeth is totally innocent of all charge? I did not didn't I? And I think it's a little bit sarcastic when you use the term babysitting, a commander must see to the good being and safety of his soldier, but that's responsibility of a leader, not babysitting.


And again (you keep missing this), the point is not to BLAME, but to SHARE the responsibility, it's wrong for people to blame EVERYTHING on Aribeth, neither she can BLAME everything on others. It's S-H-A-R-E. With sharing it will come understanding, from understanding it will come sympathy, from sympathy peace may come. While blaming will only continues the circle of vengeance, Neverwinter blamed Fenthick for their suffer to make Aribeth suffer, Aribeth blame Neverwinter for her suffer just to cause more suffer, so at the end, tell me, who is the one that can be benifit from that circle? And in that circle, point me out an element of justice, or there are only selfishness and vengeance?


      I don't miss this. But we are not discussing about moral responsibilities. It's about punishment. What I told you about Aribeth is not where blame goes, but why do you meet her in Hells and not on Mount Celestia, where she should have been.
      On the other hand, if we are discussing if her punishment was just or not, I want to call your attention upon the fact that such an argument (she shares the responsibility with others) will never be taken into consideration by any court, Tyr included. If she was practically pushed on this path of betrayal, I agree, but she still goes to the guillotine (or in Hells if she was killed in battle). Law does not has excuses in case of personal traumas. On the other hand, Tyr must always be just in his actions. If he forgives a criminal, then it means he is unjust towards those who died at the edge of Aribeth's blade. True that se was driven by vengeance, but I don't think she murdered only those responsible of Fenthick's death.
      On the other hand, don't imagine that Tyr will excuse the others. First of all, we do not know what was the law in Neverwinter. If Nasher acted against the law by executing Fenthick (and I think he did), he will have his own problems with Tyr.



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While in most religous, including the D&D universe, Gods is viewed as supreme entities, as perfection, to them, they can not never be wrong no matter how wrong it actually is, there will be always excuses for their action, they can never be wrong. HA! It's because of that very reason I call Tyr is just a selfserving jerk. To judge another one must know how to judge oneself first


     No. In D&D universe, gods are not viewed at all as perfection. Not even the good ones. If you expect this from a  D&D god, you will be dissapointed. After all, in an universe where mortal can become gods (Bane, Bhaal, Myrkul, Azuth, Mystra, Kelemvor, Cyric, Torm, Shevarash), how could gods be perfect ?

      On the other hand, you should not think that Edorem's death is so cruel. After all, he would just return to Mount Celestia. More cruel is the fact that he had his heart crushed a second time, but to this Tyr could have done nothing.


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Edorem is guilty of being a jerk to the PC, thats it. HE IS HUMAN after all. Really other then being a jerk what did he do wrong?


      See my example about Torquatus. Practically, his deed caused no harm. But because he acted against the military discipline he was executed without mercy. On the other hand, Edorem is a chosen of a god. Individual in such special station must submit to draconic rules. I emphasize this : DRACONIC RULES. For instance : any templar knight who flee from the enemy while the Beausant was flying or without permission of the Marshall was immediately expelled from the order. o this we can use your own words : they are humans, after all. True. But they were still kicked out of the order. For Tyr it matters not that Edorem was a jerk to the PC. It matters that he acted against the paladinic code and discipline. And also I outline this : you ask what he did wrong. Well, you ask this because you think as a person from 21-th century. In a medieval world, offences against honor are as serious as an attempt against someone's life.

       But one thing I remind you : this is Tyr's point of view, not mine. When I said what could happen to Edorem (before Sillara posted her story), I thought only of losing his chosen and paladin status.

      And one other matter :  A paladin by the name of Miltiades, was condemned by Tyr to exist as an undead knight for his resorting to dishonorable assassination tactics to kill his enemy, Zarl. Unlike the death knights mentioned above, though, Miltiades retained his sense of good, and fought by the sides of good heroes, helping to defeat the forces of Bane. He was eventually restored to life by Tyr, after helping the heroes destroy a pool of darkness and a pool of twilight.
      It did not mattered that Miltiades maybe had good reasons to hate Zarl. Maybe the man murdered his family (in fact, I don't know what Zarl did to upset Miltiades so much, but I am in the process of finding out). But what Zarl did was of little significance. For his deed, Miltiades was punished with undeath (much worse than Edorem). But because he find the strength to endure his fate (and how easy would have been for him to lay all the blame on Tyr and give into evil completely ! ), he was redeemed and rewarded.
Real sucks, Barca rules !

I like Real only when it plays in Segunda Division !

It is said that Mount Celestia is a place of perfection. None else than Saerileth could have been the symbol of its splendor.

Offline Mightysword

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Whatever happened to Edorem, he who loved Saerileth?
« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2005, 09:25:28 AM »
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. I agree with you that his fate was cruel and undeserved



There, you said it yourself. A sentence that is undeserved serves no justice. So what is the god of justice if he is injustice in his own judgment? No matter what he thinks, want, under whatever circumstances, justice must prevail. Sometime a sentence can be harsh, sometime a sentence can be mercy, but they're ok as long as the convict is derserved the sentence, thus justice is served. However, even if a sentence is not harsh, yet the convict is not deserved the sentence, then there is no justice. So what're you trying to defend, Edorem fails, but obviously Tyr also fails his duty.


Another point to bring up:


+ In Aribeth case, her fallen is complex. She suffer from the lost of her betro, she feels she's betrayed by the people she worked so hard for, she feels that her friends abandone her, and under foul magic she thinks her god turns his back on her. Her soul and heart are twisted, her fallen is understandable. The Aribeth who protected NWN and the Aribeth who attacked NWN to some decree, are 2 difference person.



+ Now look at Edorem's fallen. It's clear to us now that's it has been always his personality. He is not someone born with a trait suitable a paladin, left alone a Chosen. Why Tyr chose him? Edorem with his personality is destined to fail his paladinhood, the only question is how fast and which way, he's never meant to be a paladin. His fallen is a result of his superioty (Tyr) place a responsibility that he can not handle. His fallen is just a point in the middle of the path, trace it back to the source, what is the reason of his fallen. He falls because he is choses to be something he's not meant to be. This is Tyr's fault, he made a bad choice, and now punishing Edorem for whatever reason is just a way to blame his own mistake upon his chosen.



THink about this situation: a commander decide to send a marine on a commandos taks, and the marine fails. So, who should take most of the fault, the commander, or the marine? Will the commander have the gut to accept his mistake in choosing the wrong person for the wrong mission, or will he be so self-respect that he will let the marine takes all the responsibility and discipline in order for him to maintain his good image?



Edorem fails because he can not live up to his code, but remember there is also the matter of who choosing him for the task the beginning. But I guess a self serving god like Tyr will never have the gut to step up and accept his mistake, if Edorem fails, it's all Edorem's fault isn't it.

Offline Dead_Ghost

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Whatever happened to Edorem, he who loved Saerileth?
« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2005, 09:37:40 AM »
Merely a question: why do you say that Edorem was never fit to be a Chosen? We know how he died, not how he was born or how he was educated. Just as a possibility, but, before SoA, Edorem could've been a true Paladin. Someone worthy of being Chosen. Then the matters of heart blinded him. So what? That can happen to anybody.
Unless I'm missing something, of course. :)
*nothing to see here. move along, move along*

Offline Lord Kain

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Whatever happened to Edorem, he who loved Saerileth?
« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2005, 11:20:45 AM »
Quote from: "Dead_Ghost"
Merely a question: why do you say that Edorem was never fit to be a Chosen? We know how he died, not how he was born or how he was educated. Just as a possibility, but, before SoA, Edorem could've been a true Paladin. Someone worthy of being Chosen. Then the matters of heart blinded him. So what? That can happen to anybody.
Unless I'm missing something, of course. :)


Exactly a paladin is not required to like someone, he even apologizes to the PC for his harsh actions (and in the case of removing charisma enchanting items to find the PC is still charming) he apologizes for that.

You talk about how he should be fallen or no longer chosen after his actions. NOW tell me exactly give me the PRIME AND EXACT example of what he did.

He's guily of being a jerk and over jealous about protecting Saerileth once she makes it clear she loves the PC. HE LEAVES. He doesn't make a big fuss or a fight like Haer'Dalis.
"Who--who are you?"
"Who? Who is but the form following the function of what... and what I am is a man in a mask."
"I can see that"
"Of course you can. I'm not questioning your powers of observation, I'm merely remarking on the paradox of asking a masked man who he is."