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Released Mods => NPC Mods => BG1 NPCs for SoA => Topic started by: Smiling Imp on November 20, 2012, 03:59:13 PM

Title: New Montaron Romance!!!
Post by: Smiling Imp on November 20, 2012, 03:59:13 PM
(http://www.the-silver-river.com/GameInfo/BG1/Images/Montaron.gif)
(http://i48.tinypic.com/2gsihs2.jpg)
(http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1093/3174029577_b74340b3f5.jpg)

(http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/bg2main.gif)


Title: Re: New Montaron Romance!!!
Post by: Smiling Imp on November 20, 2012, 04:05:24 PM
Yes, you heard it here first. I have just begun writing a romance for Montaron!  :eek

I must warn you though, Montaron is a selfish lover and I pity the woman that actually degrades herself enough to want to be with such a scumbag but stranger things have happened. Another thing I must warn you about is that this version of Montaron curses quite a bit, so I imagine their might be some choice language somewhere along the line.
Title: Re: New Montaron Romance!!!
Post by: TDouglas on November 20, 2012, 08:33:35 PM
I LOVE the idea!   :lilly

Psychotic, self-centered and just plain evil (in a loveable sort of way  ;D ).  Uncle Monty has always been one of my favorite characters (cursing or no).



Title: Re: New Montaron Romance!!!
Post by: Smiling Imp on November 21, 2012, 01:37:43 PM
I LOVE the idea!   :lilly

Psychotic, self-centered and just plain evil (in a loveable sort of way  ;D ).  Uncle Monty has always been one of my favorite characters (cursing or no).

Thanks TDouglas.

Began writing last night and I got a few dialogs down so far. Originally, I was going to of make the romance, halfling, dwarf, gnome, exclusive as a snub for the lack of 'small' romances, but why let the taller ones miss out on the fun I thought. Eventually I want to try some player initiated flirts as well, but one thing at a time. I figured Montaron would be a good place to start as far as being a beginner romance. He is very one sided, unforgiving and quick tempered, making it a less serious smoochy romance and more a parody of a bad relationship gone worse.   
Title: Re: New Montaron Romance!!!
Post by: TDouglas on November 22, 2012, 10:07:26 AM
Sounds good!  I've never cared much for the sappy romances anyways.  Are you also going to put in an extended friendship path for the male charnames out there?  Or, if you want a more interesting challenge, make Monty romancable by either gender?   ;D
Title: Re: New Montaron Romance!!!
Post by: Lava Del'Vortel on November 22, 2012, 11:21:24 AM
Quote
Or, if you want a more interesting challenge, make Monty romancable by either gender?
That would be interesting, but not sure if not too extreeme. Even though I like many options, I can't imagine Montaron having sex with men.
Title: Re: New Montaron Romance!!!
Post by: TDouglas on November 22, 2012, 11:48:23 AM
Your basing your statement on Judaeo-christian mythology ... pagan cultures typically had no issue with same sex relationships.  X-ian morality would have no place in a fantasy setting ya know  8) (especially among evil NPC's  :razz ).   Plus, I wasn't implying a "tender, touching" relationship ... many war based cultures fully expected their warriors to form sexual relationships among themselves (the Spartans leap to mind, but there were many others).  These weren't "romances" in the classic 16-year-old-schoolgirl sense (which BG2 seems to favor) ... more like "friends with benefits" I suppose  :razz .

Being Neutral Evil, I'm guessing Monty is strictly after his own gratification, and probably wouldn't really give a rats arse who (or even what) he used to get it.  It would take a lot more thought, but something like that could add extra depth (and a darker dimension) to the character.
Title: Re: New Montaron Romance!!!
Post by: Lava Del'Vortel on November 22, 2012, 12:18:44 PM
Uh, I think you forgot that I wrote Tsuki, who is eager to have sex with anyone. Gender doesn't matter as long as he is satisfied... Believe me, I find nothing wrong in homosexuality etc, but I just think that Monty isn't that kind of man, that's all. I think that he would rather use a girl it have some nice time and kept that kind of relationship, that can never get serious.
Title: Re: New Montaron Romance!!!
Post by: TDouglas on November 22, 2012, 01:44:57 PM
I've never thought of Uncle Monty as the upstanding moral type  :-\

I think we're talking about two completely different things here.  If I understand you correctly, you're talking about a BG2 style "romantic relationship" kind of thing -- finding ones "life partner", "one true love", etc.  I'm basically talking about "friends with benefits".

This would be something charname could pursue if there were no interesting females in the party and (frankly) he was horny.  Sex would simply be an extension of the friendship ... nothing more.  Don't expect Uncle Monty to start singing you love songs, bringing you flowers or anything like it (personally, I seriously doubt he would do that for a female charname either).  To the surprise of many, the fact one man has sex with another does NOT mean either one of them is gay.  Sex is highly opportunistic in most higher animal species (humans inclusive).  There is, however, a huge difference between sex and love (which is where we seem to be having our misunderstanding).

Being Neutral Evil, Monty would not care at all about moral codes -- he'll do whatever he damn well pleases, when it pleases him and with whomever (or even whatever) is available (most likely whether they're consenting or not).  I don't know if Smiling Imp want's to get really dark and depraved with it, but a friendship path with Monty could lead to some very disturbing scenes (although a Xzar romance would be even darker, with its undertones of necrophilia).

I'm just saying if you're going to have a "romance" for the ladies, why not throw a bone to the guys as well (no real pun intended   ;D ) with a psychopathic friendship path (with or without sex ... the point is character development, not porn).
Title: Re: New Montaron Romance!!!
Post by: Smiling Imp on November 22, 2012, 02:57:08 PM
Thanks for the feedback guys. You have given me a lot to think about.
Title: Re: New Montaron Romance!!!
Post by: Lava Del'Vortel on November 22, 2012, 03:06:02 PM
And you think Tsuki is a romantic romance? It's not. And no matter what you say, no matter what are the facts of the past, present or predicions about future; no matter in what culture or what are the other contexts (like alignment) are, there are men who won't accept male-male sex. Same goes for women. And I believe that Montaron is someone like that. He's not someone driven by urges, as he is more a merciles methodist (however, I'm not sure if he's that merciles after all). And he's a Zhentarim. I always fight for monorities, like homosexual players, but it doesn't mean that we have to make EVERY character bisexual. I think that Montaron would rather make fun of PC is he appeared to be a homosexual. That would be rather something apropriate. Offering some male-male sex (doesn't really matter if that's stuppose to be 'friends with benefits' relationship - I don't actually believe Monty would need that kind of benefits, anyway as he would rather hire a hooker than have sex with anyone who's near) just to stress how evil he is would be a rather out-of-character fixation.  
Title: Re: New Montaron Romance!!!
Post by: TDouglas on November 22, 2012, 03:56:12 PM
I've never thought of Monty as being a bigot tho :(

While there are 10% of any given population who are completely "straight" (and another 10% that are completely "gay"), the rest (that's 80% ya know :) ) are in the opportunistic category ... take what you can get when it's available.

It sounds like you think indulging in homosexual activity is something appropriate only to "evil" characters ... I'd have to disagree with you on that as well (and for the exact same reasons stated previously).  While there have been some interesting books and articles written on the nature of "evil", what it ultimately boils down to is either the childish/religious take on it (evil is anything that goes against the wishes of myself, my group or my religion) or a somewhat more mature definition: that evil reflects how the individual relates to society as a whole (good being for it, evil being pretty much antisocial) ... in either case, it has nothing to do with sex per se.  In fact, the only exception would be sex for revenge / revolt /  violence (rape, mutilation, that sort of thing, but that has nothing to do with sexual gratification in and of itself). 

Uncle Monty is Neutral Evil (emphasis on Neutral): neutral characters are only out for themselves ... they're not concerned with loftier goals (societal, religious or otherwise).  In the real world, most of the "anti gay" people I've met would strongly consider themselves Lawful Good (they're almost always religious fanatics / bigots / hypocrites).  The whole concept of Lawful rests on enforced conformity to societal standards (usually derived from the self-righteous types)  ... if Monty was from a homophobic society (and was Lawful) I'd agree he'd be likely to be homophobic as well.  However, to the best of my knowledge the Zents are (for lack of a better term) homo-neutral (meaning they don't really give a damn), and Monty is Neutral himself (looking out for his own interests first and foremost), so his being homophobic seems unlikely.

Either way, the idea is to develop a (twisted) friendship path ... sex would be something interesting to "throw in there", but it isn't necessary.  Even if Monty was of the 10% completely straight population, I doubt he'd really give a damn if charname was or not (as long as it diddn't involve him directly).  Again, I'm not sure how dark Smiling Imp is looking to make this ... in the Murneth NPC mod (for BG1) Monty has a dialog with said NPC in which he says he's hoping to become a torturer for the Zhents some day.  That could lead to some of the more violent forms of sex mentioned in the first paragraph (rape, mutilation, etc).  As far as a "relationship" path (with another male, sex or not) that could come into play easily (the party has a captive, and Monty is looking for a turned head if not actual approval / support for the dark deeds he has in mind), possibly leaving the player in his/her own "moral dilemma" as to how to react.

No matter how you look at it, a "relationship" path with Monty could be a very interesting addition to the game :)
Title: Re: New Montaron Romance!!!
Post by: Lava Del'Vortel on November 22, 2012, 04:22:16 PM
Quote
It sounds like you think indulging in homosexual activity is something appropriate only to "evil" characters ...
You garble my words completely. I'm just saying that It's not Montaron. It's like getting too far with the character.
It's like making Sarevok gay because he's evil and he likes to give orders... It's just getting too far.
And making fun =/= being homophobic. Seriously.

You know, I hate when someone accuses me of saying words, beliefs, ideas I have never said or agreed with.

And now I'll rather go and have some rest as it's after 1AM here.

...seriously...
Title: Re: New Montaron Romance!!!
Post by: TDouglas on November 22, 2012, 04:58:28 PM
The eternal problem of language ... it's not a very good means of communication :(  I suppose we simply perceive the NPC in different ways.

Anyhow, I never intended to start an argument on the subject ... I've never seen Monty as being that opinionated on anything else so why this?  The point is to suggest interesting possibilities and let Smiling Imp use his twisted imagination from there on :)  A relationship path with Monty offers many dark and brooding possibilities ...

So, Smiling Imp, let's see just how evil you can be!   ;D
Title: Re: New Montaron Romance!!!
Post by: Rhaella on November 22, 2012, 08:34:50 PM
He's not someone driven by urges, as he is more a merciles methodist (however, I'm not sure if he's that merciles after all). And he's a Zhentarim.

Eh, there's absolutely no reason to think that the Zhentarim are homophobic. The Realms are supposed to be pretty liberal about sexuality throughout, so I'd only expect homophobia from places with some serious gender inequalities. (Calimshan, etc.) The Zhentarim are very equal opportunity evil, though, and there are quite a few women in powerful positions.  Given the Banite tendencies, you may run into problems if you're perceived as a submissive partner, but beyond that... I really doubt it.

That said, sexuality is a matter of taste, not morality.  Doubly so in Faerun.  I personally can't really see Montaron with another man either, possibly because the potential power dynamic gets complicated in a way he wouldn't want to deal with.  I don't know.  I don't really see him bothering with anyone besides prostitutes in general.
Title: Re: New Montaron Romance!!!
Post by: Lava Del'Vortel on November 23, 2012, 02:01:48 AM
By being a Zhentarim I wanted to say that he would have different priorities than "having sex right here, right now", not that they are homophobic. I was too tired to write what I meant.

Aaaand I never said that it has to do something with morality. Yeah, it's taste. It's what you find temptating. Interesting. Appealing.

...and since both me and Rhaella mentioned a prostitute, it may be quite an idea for the encounter! :D
Title: Re: New Montaron Romance!!!
Post by: Rhaella on November 23, 2012, 07:08:11 AM
Oh, sorry.  I was agreeing with you on it being a matter of taste rather than one of morality.  That part wasn't directed at you.
Title: Re: New Montaron Romance!!!
Post by: TDouglas on November 23, 2012, 10:04:50 AM
I'm not sure sexual orientation qualifies as being a matter of taste ... makes it sound like they woke up one morning and decided to be gay.  It's simply a question of how the brain is wired, with 10% going to one extreme or the other and the rest being somewhere inbetween.

That said, you get power dynamics in any relationship (gay or straight, sexual or platonic).  I direct your attention to the old phrase "who wears the pants in the family", which dealt with that situation and was directed exclusively (for the time period) at heterosexual couples.

I got to thinking about the problem last night tho, and realized Smiling Imp may have more on his plate than he realizes.  There are no indications (that I can tell) that Montaron is homophobic (nothing in BG1 to that effect), but he is pretty constantly referred to as psyhopathic throughout.  He definately doesn't like travelling with good / neutral aligned characters (I seem to recall him attacking such NPCs without provocation), and even the wording in his (BG1) bio supports the assertion.  I'm certainly no expert, but I seem to recall that psychopathic individuals do not feel love (or empathize with others to any great degree), although they are extremely good manipulators.  If memory serves, they're pretty much loners.  None of which bodes well for a romance :(

Given Montys tendency towards violence (and, as per Murneth, apparent predisposition towards torture), I'm guessing the prostitute path might well end up with him being a "Jack the Ripper" type ... it would certainly be in keeping with his BG1 presentation.  I still don't perceive the NPC as being homophobic, tho if psychopathic he would certainly not hesitate to use sex to control charname if he thought he could.

My posts have been trying to lead towards a relationship path with the NPC (not necessarily a sexual one), with some interesting problems for charname with it's unfolding.  You'd run into these problems regardless of the nature of said relationship tho.  Trying to "flesh out" the character (with the bare bones information presented in BG1) is going to lead in some interesting directions.

Honestly Smiling Imp, for your first romance you may be better off choosing someone more ... stable? 
Title: Re: New Montaron Romance!!!
Post by: Lava Del'Vortel on November 23, 2012, 11:06:15 AM
Yeah, sure! :D I'm glad you joined the discussion as you know more about Zhentarims than we do ;)

Oh, and about the prostitute thing: it would be a funny experience. Like meeting a courtesan saying something like "You're back Monty? You're one of my best clients, you know?" and the talk with charname about it :D
Title: Re: New Montaron Romance!!!
Post by: Rhaella on November 23, 2012, 11:14:16 AM
I'm not sure sexual orientation qualifies as being a matter of taste ... makes it sound like they woke up one morning and decided to be gay.  It's simply a question of how the brain is wired, with 10% going to one extreme or the other and the rest being somewhere inbetween.

That said, you get power dynamics in any relationship (gay or straight, sexual or platonic).  I direct your attention to the old phrase "who wears the pants in the family", which dealt with that situation and was directed exclusively (for the time period) at heterosexual couples.

Well, I'm not sure anyone wakes up one morning and decides that today they're going to like pizza or broccoli or whatever else.  I'm just using it as a synonym for 'preference.'  As for only 10% being entirely one way or the other... that may be true, but a lot of people are still close enough to make no substantial difference. When it comes to writing romances, I wouldn't be willing to make a bisexual NPC unless they were in the 40-60% range.  Unless the NPC is pretty close to that true bisexual mark, you're setting yourself up for a hell of a lot of extra work to make it believable.

And yeah, there are power dynamics anywhere, but chauvinistic men tend to pretend otherwise. I'm not sure if Montaron is sexist, though. If he is, it's certainly not to the same degree as Edwin, Eldoth, or even Korgan.

Honestly Smiling Imp, for your first romance you may be better off choosing someone more ... stable? 

Agreed. Hell, if you still wanted something ugly, Eldoth might be a better bet.
Title: Re: New Montaron Romance!!!
Post by: TDouglas on November 23, 2012, 12:42:27 PM
quote/ Yeah, sure! Cheesy I'm glad you joined the discussion as you know more about Zhentarims than we do Wink /quote

Ohhhh kaaay, I wasn't aware we were discussing the Zhents, but have it your way :)

As for how Monty is going to be perceived, that will vary by individual ... there's no "one true way" to experience things (especially something as ambiguous as an ill-defined NPC :) ) so any interpretation Smiling Imp chooses is fine.

As for the whole bisexual thing ... jeesh, how often does one have to state (and restate, and state again) that the post has nothing in particular to do with sex?  Much less sexual preference.  My point with Monty being psychopathic is that there are those who use sex as a tool and nothing more ... this is from real life, not just a mod.  How many times (in the real world) have you seen someone (male or female) use sex for the sole purpose of screwing up someone elses life for instance?  As I've said before, you don't have to be gay, straight, bi or a mushroom to indulge in any form of sexual activity ... the reasons for it are often complex and related more to the environment (and genetics) than preference (i.e. prisoners).

I'm wondering if the real problem here is trying to force "evil" characters to conform to "good" standards?  Perhaps Monty is "just misunderstood"?  Get real ... I fail to see why it's so impossible to simply let evil BE evil without all the morality plays.  Who really cares about sex (or orientation) in the first place ... a psychopath would not hesitate to do whatever was needful to accomplish his objectives -- period.  For all I care Monty could be a serial turnip rapist.  The point is to develop the NPC in an interesting way, allowing him to actually BE evil (instead of some watered down goody-goody).  For a romance (or even just a friendship) Monty is not going to be concerned about your feelings, your life dreams or any of the rest of that sappy crap.  He's evil, not good or neutral.  Your morality does not concern him in any way, means, shape or form (unless it starts interfering with his goals, in which case your life is probably forfeit).
Title: Re: New Montaron Romance!!!
Post by: Lava Del'Vortel on November 23, 2012, 01:08:18 PM
Actually I think the best thing would be writing a romance / NPC of your own, as most people associate your mod with bringing back old NPC rather than romances or huge friendships and I think that part won't get as much attention as it should.

...as for everything you wrote till now, why not you help with "Xzar and Monty" by contribution?

Quote
Ohhhh kaaay, I wasn't aware we were discussing the Zhents, but have it your way
Monty is a Zhentarim and social groups (any: mercenaries, chantries, family, friends) construct identity. That's a fact.

Dough, it is a matter of prefferences and they are shaped for a long long time and it also has SOMETHING to do with identity. Choosing to use sex as a tool is also a kind of prefference, not a matter of alignment, morality, mood or anything like that.
As for prisoners - not every single prisoner have sex while being imprisoned, right? That's an issue of prefference too, as it has a lot to do with both choice and an idea of satisfying own need. Some would masturbate, some would have sex with other men and some maybe wouldn't satisfy the urge, what may be equal to torturing him-/herself.

Facts you present are really generalizing, like stating prisoners satisfy themselves through sex with other imprisoned men. Yeah, it's a common knowledge, but what about the dimension of the phenomenon? And how many of those who have homosexual contact in prison actually wants it?

Getting satisfaction by crude sex has nothing to do with evilness, but with choices which are determined by many many many factors, and one of the most significant factor is the matter of prefference (a choice to satisfy it that way, or in a different way).

I agree Monty wouldn't care for your feeling, but he would care for himself, reputation, gold, winning what he wants to win. But it doesn't mean he would use any way, because even playing hardball isn't like that, as it includes all possible ways we consider and see.
Title: Re: New Montaron Romance!!!
Post by: TDouglas on November 23, 2012, 01:59:31 PM
My point would be that this character (if you go with the psychopath interpretation favored by BG1) would be the kind to use any form of "relationship" as a tool.  Monty is portrayed as a dangerous individual throughout BG1 ... the idea of him being a BG2 "Jack the Ripper" is perfectly consistent with his BG1 persona.  Maybe it would be a new twist on the skinner murders in the docks ... Monty could critique the tanner on his methods, and maybe open a path for the party to work WITH him rather than the good path of turning him in.  As I said, let evil BE evil.

As for prisoners, you're still thinking of sex as ONLY physical gratification ... you're forgetting that a healthy percentage of "prison sex" is actually "prison rape" ... it doesn't have anything to do with orientation at all, it's a form of power tripping.  Unfortunately, that's exactly the kind of behavior a psychopath would indulge in (regardless of his sexual preference).  Just saying ... :)
Title: Re: New Montaron Romance!!!
Post by: Smiling Imp on November 23, 2012, 02:53:44 PM
Lots of good dialog happening. Just a few things that ran through my mind.

I agree with the consensus, Monty would mostly frequent prostitutes and I like the idea of some of the harlots in the game knowing him and him having to explain that to <CHARNAME>.  I also like the 'Jack the Ripper' idea and even helping the tanner.

As far a Montaron and homosexuality, I remember reading a thread about the sexuality of certain BG characters and a lot of people seemed to agree that he and Xzar were in the closet. It seemed feasible at the time, but the more I thought, the more I began to believe that Montaron would not want any kind of emotional attachment, whether he was forthcoming about it or not. Sex for him would be about self-gratification, power and domination. Thus I could possibly see Montaron giving the business to a male <CHARNAME>, to let him know who is the boss. I also see him as a manipulator that will use people to get what he wants from them. As far as the other aspects of the friendship path besides sex, I will have to think about it, although any suggestions in this regard would be appreciated.

Yes.. Montaron may not be the ideal candidate for a romance, but at least then you guys won't be disappointed if  it stinks.  ;)
Title: Re: New Montaron Romance!!!
Post by: Lava Del'Vortel on November 23, 2012, 03:01:21 PM
I'm getting slightly tired of it. You've got your own vision of what I'm writing, Dough. Like here:
I said:
Quote
And how many of those who have homosexual contact in prison actually want it?
While you say:
Quote
you're forgetting that a healthy percentage of "prison sex" is actually "prison rape"
So... uhm... I think you're just taking some bits of what I'm writing, you don't look at questions I ask etc. Seriously...

Everything's up to Imp and I don't think he needs a debate about sex in prison here.
Title: Re: New Montaron Romance!!!
Post by: TDouglas on November 23, 2012, 04:11:01 PM
Quote
Montaron may not be the ideal candidate for a romance, but at least then you guys won't be disappointed if it stinks.

You're being WAY too hard on yourself there ... you've been doing an excellent job so far :)  This IS going to be a bitch to write tho :-D

I can easily see Uncle Monty trying to critique the tanner on his skinning techniques tho ... handled carefully, that could even be darkly hilarious :) .  Hmmm, ya know, you could even grant an improvement to the armor of human flesh you ultimately end up with.  Assuming the party decides to aid the tanner (and his boyz) there's no real reason you couldn't wind up with higher quality flesh than the tanner would have acquired ... it would probably take some extra components (besides Adalons blood), so could even work in an extra quest for it.  It would really just depend on what you want to do :)

Montys involvement would flow naturally from the psychopath angle ... many such individuals use human flesh to reupholster their furniture (and make some nice area rugs & throw pillows & such).  It's a pity the BG series doesn't use non-weapon proficiencies ... it's be a hoot if poor Monty could harvest the materials, but was constantly stabbing himself in the finger with the sewing needle :)

I really can't imagine Monty getting into a gay relationship, but then it's hard to imagine him in ANY romantic relationship ... from his BG1 descriptions, I'd say he's just not that kind of guy.  As you said, he would use romantic feelings someone else may develop to direct said persons actions.  Probably, in this case, he'd use charnames attempts at a relationship to drag him/her into the flesh harvesting trade (especially if there's good money involved).  Since Monty (in BG1 at least) tends to attack good/neutral party members, the relationship path (of any type) would only work if charname is evil ... although attempting to corrupt good or neutral characters would have its charms as well :)  It's one more thing you'd have to consider prior to writing (I warned you this is going to be a bitch to write :) ).
Title: Re: New Montaron Romance!!!
Post by: BR4ZIL on November 23, 2012, 04:18:33 PM
And you think Tsuki is a romantic romance? It's not. And no matter what you say, no matter what are the facts of the past, present or predicions about future; no matter in what culture or what are the other contexts (like alignment) are, there are men who won't accept male-male sex. Same goes for women. And I believe that Montaron is someone like that. He's not someone driven by urges, as he is more a merciles methodist (however, I'm not sure if he's that merciles after all). And he's a Zhentarim. I always fight for monorities, like homosexual players, but it doesn't mean that we have to make EVERY character bisexual. I think that Montaron would rather make fun of PC is he appeared to be a homosexual. That would be rather something apropriate. Offering some male-male sex (doesn't really matter if that's stuppose to be 'friends with benefits' relationship - I don't actually believe Monty would need that kind of benefits, anyway as he would rather hire a hooker than have sex with anyone who's near) just to stress how evil he is would be a rather out-of-character fixation.  

I gotta agree with Lava here, Montaron doesnt seems the guy that would do such thing. A "friends with benefits relationship" is something that might put Monty in a vulnerable position (said person would get to know his habits & such) and with him being a very careful person, it would seem very out of character for him to do that, i definitly see him getting a prostitue, someone that will be inconsequential to him later & with no need to worry.

If anything ,Xzar is a more likely candidate to have sex with a male PC (and he might not even know what he is doing  :P).
Title: Re: New Montaron Romance!!!
Post by: TDouglas on November 23, 2012, 04:30:11 PM
Yeah, I suspect Xzar could have sex with one of Montys discarded turnips and not be aware of it :)

Again, however, this isn't really a question about orientation (or sex itself) ... it's about the type of relationship he'd be willing to enter into.  I agree he's going to keep his distance, but he'd do that with anyone (male, female or vegatable :) ).  I just see him trying to use any advantage he can get (even to include sex), regardless of his "orientation".
Title: Re: New Montaron Romance!!!
Post by: BR4ZIL on November 23, 2012, 04:41:23 PM
Yeah, I suspect Xzar could have sex with one of Montys discarded turnips and not be aware of it :)

Again, however, this isn't really a question about orientation (or sex itself) ... it's about the type of relationship he'd be willing to enter into.  I agree he's going to keep his distance, but he'd do that with anyone (male, female or vegatable :) ).  I just see him trying to use any advantage he can get (even to include sex), regardless of his "orientation".

Even then, IMO, Montaron wouldnt want to enter this kind of relationship (friends with benefits) with someone he has to be constantly with (the PC), that just seems imprudent of him. I know a Neutral Evil person has the "mercenary" atitude, but that doesnt mean he doesnt think on the consequences & the risk of doing such thing.

For example, Montaron wouldnt do it because he would either think said person would intrude in his personal space or maybe that person would inconsequentially fall in love with him (maybe he thinks he is that awesome  :razz) and he wouldnt want the trouble.

Montaron can be gay,bisexual or straight for all i care, but he wouldnt do anything with close company he has to keep, i see him being VERY wary & distant of the rest of the party.
Title: Re: New Montaron Romance!!!
Post by: TDouglas on November 23, 2012, 04:48:25 PM
Quote
  he wouldnt do anything with close company he has to keep, i see him being VERY wary & distant of the rest of the party 

And that's the issue exactly ... trying to figure out how Monty would respond to any form of relationship (including a "platonic" friendship).  The interesting question (and what Smiling Imp is shooting for) is if it would be possible to actually "get to know" the character ... to get into a relationship path (regardless of it's type).  And, if so, then what happens next
Title: Re: New Montaron Romance!!!
Post by: BR4ZIL on November 23, 2012, 04:51:41 PM
The only way i can see him getting in a relationship at all is kinda what this mod is going for, someone who will bow to him & "lick his boots" enough so he knows said person isnt up to something, so he lets his guard down & enjoys the moment.
Title: Re: New Montaron Romance!!!
Post by: TDouglas on November 23, 2012, 04:56:43 PM
On the other hand, gaining a "partner in crime" could lower his defenses as well -- someone who shares his (depraved) interests / hobbies / bloodlust (especially if charname keeps the parties reputation VERY low).  The more you have in common with someone the more likely he would be to "open up" ... at least partially. It may be enough for a relationship to develop (even tho it would likely just keep spirialing towards madness and depravity).
Title: Re: New Montaron Romance!!!
Post by: BR4ZIL on November 23, 2012, 05:03:13 PM
On the other hand, gaining a "partner in crime" could lower his defenses as well -- someone who shares his (depraved) interests / hobbies / bloodlust (especially if charname keeps the parties reputation VERY low).  The more you have in common with someone the more likely he would be to "open up" ... at least partially. It may be enough for a relationship to develop (even tho it would likely just keep spirialing towards madness and depravity).

Not sure what to say, his relation with Xzar isnt really a "opened up" one and they are partners in crime (but then again, Its Xzar we are talking about).

Smiling Imp needs to read up a few steriotypical Duegar "love" fanfics, i see a relationship with Montaron being just like one  :P
Title: Re: New Montaron Romance!!!
Post by: princess_sweets on November 23, 2012, 05:04:39 PM
LOL! I like the idea. My halfling charname, has been looking for a new boyfriend. :D
Title: Re: New Montaron Romance!!!
Post by: TDouglas on November 23, 2012, 05:15:21 PM
Then you should sit your halfling charname down and have a good, long talk ... if said charname has any sanity left, it'll run screaming into the night rather than attempt to court Uncle Monty :)
Title: Re: New Montaron Romance!!!
Post by: TDouglas on November 24, 2012, 10:07:46 PM
One last thing I've thought of, although I don't know if it'll really help or not.  Psychopaths are very untrusting and distant ... they're not going to "open up" quickly.  My experience is that they come up with all kinds of small "tests" they apply to anyone they spend much time with.  Nothing major mind you, and it's usually small stuff that could easily come off as a simple misunderstanding.  They're basically testing you for weakness.  In the context of the game, it would probably take the form of dialog "suggestions" the player has to respond to ... Monty's would always be carefully worded so the player could think s/he "got it wrong", but the choice would be noted (incrementing some global in the process, up or down).

You'd also have the challenge of keeping his BG2 persona in line with his BG1 -- finding good / neutral characters weak & snivelling, and getting to the point of simply killing them (if in the party).  People who've travelled with him through BG1 are already aware of it, but folks that start with the NPC directly in BG2 (and so don't really know what they're getting themselves into) could have a pretty rude awakening :)

It's a pity you're not interested in BGT -- you'd be able to write some of those "small tests" and implement them throughout the game.  Throwing too many of 'em at the player too quickly would be a bit obvious.  He certainly wouldn't throw something as big as the skinner murders at you right off the bat (if at all -- depends on how you've responded to his "tests").  I doubt very seriously he'd have a problem with slavery, so the whole Hendak thing in the Copper Coronet could be one of 'em.  If he's in the party when you deal with the Circus at the promenade that could be developed into one as well (defining an evil path through it).  Really, though, I can't think of too many "quests" in BG2 that happen before the bridge district ... :(
Title: Re: New Montaron Romance!!!
Post by: Smiling Imp on November 26, 2012, 01:13:17 PM
Wow! Thanks for the feedback guys. It has taken me a few days to work off the turkey, but its time to get back at it. Uncle Monty, is a very impatient man! Thanks for the brainstorm TDouglas. I like the the idea of the Montaron 'tests'. I agree, it would be better implemented earlier on as it would give them more time, rather than seeming rushed. I took the skeleton of the two dialogs I wrote and changed them to better match the picture that is forming in my head.
Title: Re: New Montaron Romance!!!
Post by: TDouglas on November 27, 2012, 12:48:47 AM
Careful with that Turkey :)  In my younger days I had many (losing) bouts with it ... caused me to awaken next to things that would drive a strong man mad a few times <g>.

I'm not sure if you're shooting for compatability with the BG1NPC project, but something I'd forgotten about was Monty killing those farmers at Feldposts Inn in Beregost (not that they diddn't deserve it :) ).  I'm guessing they wrote that in to show his impatience (and tendency towards violence), tho personally I think something like that would be more appropriate for chaotic rather than neutral evil (chaotics would be more likely to buck the chain of command, especially if the party rep goes too high).  That's me, though ... if you like their idea you could continue to incorporate it in BG2 (having Monty make his own (bloody) decisions whether the player agrees or not).  Again, tho, I personally think that would be more appropriate for chaotic evil characters (and then only if the player fails to keep the party rep less than, say, 8).

I think there's something to that effect in the alignment description (for CE) as well ... a warning that they will rebel if the leader isn't strong enough ... basically handled by rep in game, with "average" reps and higher a sign of weakness.  Wouldn't apply to Monty per se (Xzar maybe, as he's CE), but would to other CE NPCs you write for.  Could lead to some interesting times (player wise) if the party members start to dissent, choosing evil paths despite goody-goody decisions the player tries to make in dialogs (like what Monty did with the Beregost farmers).  It's nothing I'd personally recommend, but easy enough to implement if you like it :)

I was surprised by the amount of content they gave him though ... I'd figured they would devote everything to Xzar instead (who's presumably easier to write for). 
Title: Re: New Montaron Romance!!!
Post by: Smiling Imp on November 30, 2012, 11:17:56 AM
Worked on a few more romance talks. You guys are right, I have my work cut out for me!  :P

I feel up to the challenge though and have found a few resources to help.

Coding Friendships and Romances by K'aeloree
http://www.shsforums.net/index.php?showtopic=36780 (http://www.shsforums.net/index.php?showtopic=36780)

Romance Authoring Tutorial by Rastor
http://forums.rpgdungeon.net/index.php/topic,1304.0.html (http://forums.rpgdungeon.net/index.php/topic,1304.0.html)


One question remains about the matter of music though. I wasn't thinking about adding any at first but bioware NPC romances have original music and the BG1 NPC Project did give Montaron his own theme song and so I"m giving the idea some more thought. In case I do decide to add an original track, the first thing need would be to find some appropriate music and then the correct method in with to add it.
Title: Re: New Montaron Romance!!!
Post by: Smiling Imp on December 03, 2012, 12:42:49 PM
As with most bad relationships, this one is going to be dabbling into narcotics. Mostly lotus leaves but I have been trying to find out more about this one as well.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Traveler%27s_dust

For the romance to continue, you will have to at lest show a passing interest in narcotics. Eventually there will be a breaking point, where in order for him to trust you, you will have to indulge, but depending on how many dialogs I get done, that will be later on. I was conflicted if I wanted to take this route or not, but figured if I am going to be true to the characters and tell a really evil story, I had to give it some mention. I always pictured that if Xzar and Montaron had not met their fates at the hands of the Harpers in the vanilla version, that they would have been the next tandem serial killers in Athkatla. Indeed, if you have tried Xzar from this mod, he already alludes to it. Now to fill in Montaron's side of this dark tale.  
Title: Re: New Montaron Romance!!!
Post by: Smiling Imp on December 03, 2012, 12:58:15 PM

I'm not sure if you're shooting for compatability with the BG1NPC project, but something I'd forgotten about was Monty killing those farmers at Feldposts Inn in Beregost (not that they diddn't deserve it :) ).  I'm guessing they wrote that in to show his impatience (and tendency towards violence)

I was surprised by the amount of content they gave him though ... I'd figured they would devote everything to Xzar instead (who's presumably easier to write for).  

I definitely used the expanded character sketches from BG1NPC project as guideline for some characters that I was having a harder time writing for. I tried not to use specifics in fear that the authors might feel infringed upon. An expansion of what they originally wrote might be flattering to some or might cross the line for others. It would be pretty awesome though to keep some consistency between the characters and mods throughout the games.    



Smiling Imp needs to read up a few steriotypical Duegar "love" fanfics, i see a relationship with Montaron being just like one  :P

I'll check it out..  ;)
Title: Re: New Montaron Romance!!!
Post by: BR4ZIL on December 03, 2012, 04:23:31 PM
As for the Duergar "love", please do read "rape". It was more of a joke really, but i belive the steriotypical Duergar dwarf is very abusive towards his woman.

From what i have seen here, Monty is would kinda fit that type of relationship if the PC finnaly gains his trust  :P

Also, for Duergar fans, please dont take this seriously, i find them to be the most interesting dwarven sub-race, plus they get along with the Drow. (go Underdark go!  :lilly).
Title: Re: New Montaron Romance!!!
Post by: Rhaella on December 06, 2012, 03:55:09 PM
As with most bad relationships, this one is going to be dabbling into narcotics. Mostly lotus leaves but I have been trying to find out more about this one as well.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Traveler%27s_dust

Traveler's Dust is Post-Spellplague, which means it doesn't exist yet during the time frame of Baldur's Gate.

If you want something nasty and canon, you could go with Mordayn Vapor, aka Dreammist, instead. It's a highly addictive hallucinogenic whose vapors are inhaled to produce beautiful visions, but if you use too much or actually eat or drink it, it's deadly poisonous. You can find the full description in Lords of Darkness.
Title: Re: New Montaron Romance!!!
Post by: Smiling Imp on December 06, 2012, 08:42:21 PM
As with most bad relationships, this one is going to be dabbling into narcotics. Mostly lotus leaves but I have been trying to find out more about this one as well.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Traveler%27s_dust

Traveler's Dust is Post-Spellplague, which means it doesn't exist yet during the time frame of Baldur's Gate.

If you want something nasty and canon, you could go with Mordayn Vapor, aka Dreammist, instead. It's a highly addictive hallucinogenic whose vapors are inhaled to produce beautiful visions, but if you use too much or actually eat or drink it, it's deadly poisonous. You can find the full description in Lords of Darkness.


Highly addictive hallucinogenic whose vapors are inhaled to produce beautiful visions? Cool!!! Thanks for the info, Rhaella. I'll check it out when I have the chance.
Title: Re: New Montaron Romance!!!
Post by: Smiling Imp on December 14, 2012, 07:39:00 PM
The Montaron Romance will reach untold depths in the human soul! As I like to be a method writer, I have decided to live like Montaron would the last few weeks. Suffice to say, I have run into some troubles.. but hey, such is life!

Perhaps next time I'll write something for a more upbeat character..  :-\
Title: Re: New Montaron Romance!!!
Post by: TDouglas on December 15, 2012, 08:07:15 AM
I don't know if you've ever got into podcasts, but "The Drunk and the Ugly" site has uploaded something that deals with drugs quite a bit (in Call of Cthulhu terms at least).  It's called "Lover Before the Ice", and is available on their site.

One thing of particular interest is a drug (it's name escapes me right now) that induces powerful visions but only for about 30 seconds ... perfect for a RPG.  They say it's much more intense than an orgasm while it's in effect, so might be exactly the sort of thing you're looking for.

It would (at least) avoid the problems of, say, dropping acid ... where you're going to be tripping for eight hours at a time.  I honestly don't see Monty being interested in pot (way too mellow for the characters liking), so something like that would seem perfect (and you avoid the problems of having all those who partake being under penalties for a game day).

That's not to say there couldn't be some interesting side effects tho ...  let your imagination run riot :)
Title: Re: New Montaron Romance!!!
Post by: TDouglas on December 15, 2012, 08:36:25 AM
Sorry, forgot to post a link :)

  http://drunkandugly.com/2012/09/21/call-of-cthulu-lover-before-the-ice/

 (http://drunkandugly.com/2012/09/21/call-of-cthulu-lover-before-the-ice/)
Title: Re: New Montaron Romance!!!
Post by: Raven on December 28, 2012, 10:51:40 PM
Monty romance??? Wow.
Title: Re: New Montaron Romance!!!
Post by: Smiling Imp on November 09, 2016, 04:26:10 PM
Wow! What was I smoking when I came up with this stuff?! Ahhh good times.

Title: Re: New Montaron Romance!!!
Post by: Austin on December 17, 2021, 01:20:19 PM
One question remains about the matter of music though. I wasn't thinking about adding any at first but bioware NPC romances have original music and the BG1 NPC Project did give Montaron his own theme song and so I"m giving the idea some more thought. In case I do decide to add an original track, the first thing need would be to find some appropriate music and then the correct method in with to add it.
Hello! This idea has been realized, and now the romance with Montaron has its own special melody: http://www.baldursgatemods.com/forums/index.php?topic=7724.msg78914#msg78914 (http://www.baldursgatemods.com/forums/index.php?topic=7724.msg78914#msg78914) It's a little dark (like Monty himself), but good. I added it in those dialogues where Monty talks about his past - there she is especially appropriate, in my opinion :)